BozzlyB Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 It's very interesting how the notion of the TOC shows has taken on the form of a new "division" in some people's minds, much like the top 5 is often thought of. If a current years TOC corps is beat by one of the 9-whatever from last year it's really not that big of a deal. This years TOC corps are NOT "this years top 8", or "this years best 8 corps", unless they prove it finals night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 It's very interesting how the notion of the TOC shows has taken on the form of a new "division" in some people's minds, much like the top 5 is often thought of. If a current years TOC corps is beat by one of the 9-whatever from last year it's really not that big of a deal. This years TOC corps are NOT "this years top 8", or "this years best 8 corps", unless they prove it finals night. IMO it's just another way of resurrecting the old G8 controversy. The "new division" folks are just dying for a response to their comments so they can dreg up all that outrage. I just ignore it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000Cadet Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 IMO it's just another way of resurrecting the old G8 controversy. The "new division" folks are just dying for a response to their comments so they can dreg up all that outrage. I just ignore it. This is why I love reading your posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirdcoast Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 truth hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerguy315 Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 It's very interesting how the notion of the TOC shows has taken on the form of a new "division" in some people's minds, much like the top 5 is often thought of. If a current years TOC corps is beat by one of the 9-whatever from last year it's really not that big of a deal. This years TOC corps are NOT "this years top 8", or "this years best 8 corps", unless they prove it finals night. a "new division" is exactly how the idea was originally presented. So, it is not like the fans are the ones making that leap. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 You seem to be saying, with certainty, that TOC corps have been granted a competitive advantage over non-TOC corps, which is something that can't be "known" until after the season is underway (or over). I think some people are making this TOC thing out to be more than what it is. I said that the World Class Division has been slotted into 2 separate divisions to start this year... and that the slotting has been done based upon prior years competitive results. That part is factual ( and undeniable ) When is speculative is whether or not the slotting that has been established gives the TOC Corps an advantage this year from the moment the TOC slotting Corps were announced, up until the season begins, and perhaps further into this season. Fans on this point can certainly think " yes " or " no " on this aspect. Noone can " prove " this one way or the other until we see what unfolds from here on out. I hope this better clarifies what I was saying above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpaul Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 a) there is no new "division". B) How can there be slotting or competitive advantage in the off-season when there is no competition? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 I said that the World Class Division has been slotted into 2 separate divisions to start this year... and that the slotting has been done based upon prior years competitive results. That part is factual ( and undeniable ) When is speculative is whether or not the slotting that has been established gives the TOC Corps an advantage this year from the moment the TOC slotting Corps were announced, up until the season begins, and perhaps further into this season. Fans on this point can certainly think " yes " or " no " on this aspect. Noone can " prove " this one way or the other until we see what unfolds from here on out. I hope this better clarifies what I was saying above. Well ok, but certainly no more of an advantage than being in the top 12 last year gives you against last years non finalist corps. I think it will happen the same way with the TOC corps. The judges will work it out in the first few weeks of the season and then any advantage will be gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bari Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 All due respect, but it is naive, even silly, to suggest such a thing. The results will not be manipulated. The best corps will be recognized as they always are. If they happen to be the TOC eight, that will be as it should be. If others climb into the top eight, that will be as it should be too. Though we quibble with the judges' assessments each season, so too do we ultimately concede we agree with their placements with few exceptions. This year will be no different but for naive, silly assertions of TOC conspiracies where there are none. HH This is right on the money Glory! While I wont argue that Phantom probably DID get a few points for being the 08 champion, I believe the main reason Phantom was so far ahead in the beginning was how prepared the music was. Red Violin had some great music, but the visuals were awful. So, Phantom wins for a while because of music - but then everyone catches up and passes within a few shows because the overall program never got any better. The show that was presented at dress rehersal never got any better and everyone had caught up and passed them by Finals. But, I still believe that if the TOC tour was 33 shows of just the 2010 top 8 finalists - at finals in Indianapolis this year there would be a big gap between the bottom of the TOC group corps and the top scoring of the non-TOC corps. Constantly competing with high scoring corps can only bring up the scores of the rest of the competition because they are have a different vision - to knock that top corps off. If the Blue Devils, Carolina Crown, Bluecoats, Cavies and Cadets aren't at your show I dont think the top score in the show would be as high as if they were. It has nothing to do with being 'chosen' to be part of the TOC, it has to do with the consistant quality of these corps - and how competing against them makes the rest of the corps better. BUT seeing there is only 4 TOC shows this season, it should not make a significant change in how soon the first corps hits 80, 90 or more. It isn't that they are working harder to compete with each other it is that these groups, probably even the very top groups already have an established "OPERATIONAL TEMPO" that exceeds those who do not share that same sense of urgency. This is common in the MILITARY as well as in business. Example: "The Navy Seals" have a much different "OPERATIONAL TEMPO" than the guys who are back stateside working on maintenance issues. Neither is more important but one has a much higher sense of urgence and speed application to their jobs. A cdompany like Apple computers with a strong (although sick right now) leader can take their entire company and turn it on a dime to head toward something new. This is a different "OPERATIONAL TEMPO" from that of an IBM or say the California State Government. In boxing there is a different speed that only the top 10 boxers in the world are capable of... In other words the activity speeds up as you get higher in the ranks... This is the case with football not only between teams all season long but when we get to the "post season" the TEMPO increases... A LOT! So ALL Corps work as hard as they are able to based on the established "OPERATIONAL TEMPO" of their organization. When you are used to being above the middle of the pack and you end up loosing every show like the number 8 corps will have happen this season you look for ways to increase your "OPERATIONAL TEMPO" or you fold to the pressure and someone else gets that treasured TOC spot next season! It ends up being eat or be eaten just like in business, sports etc! Yikes, a conspiracy theorist! All respect to Boston, an organization that has clung to its traditions with pride and dignity and has endured, often by sheer force of will, to become a modern day powerhouse. Making the Saturday night show for the past 12 years is no small achievement. However, through the 70s and 80s Boston was respectable but by no means a contender, placing outside the top 17 considerably more often than not. It was during the 90s that they established themselves as an up-and-comer and laid the groundwork for the successful run they've experienced since 1999. Props to them for their hard work and the competitive success it has brought them. But during that period of growth in the 90's, whom would you have bumped out of finals to make room for them? Were the efforts of those 12th place/bubble competition winners, or the quality of their performances, any less deserving? It's tough down there on the bubble, just as it's tough on the periphery of the top 8/TOC. Good luck to the kids at all levels of competition. Win or lose, 8th, 10th, 12th, 13th - we can only hope that when they look back, they'll feel that their experiences were worth the effort. Peace, Fred O. This is a fine example of a corps that learned that there are things you can do to stay in the top after many years of struggling from a competetive standpoint. (Although we all were still afraid of them no matter how small the corps used to be back in the day, these were topugh kids) They learned how to increase their "OPERATIONAL TEMPO"!!! Good for them... it's not really analogous to sports though... as a member of a corps, you cannot have any impact on what another corps does. VCU can beat any team in this current basketball tournament. No drum corps in the 6+ range is going to come anywhere near BD in scoring at any time this season. If drum corps performed at the level of the best opponent, you would see significant score drops when a top 3 corps goes on at a show with no one else in the top 8. Now, have you seen these score drops repeatedly happen in these types of shows? "Middle corps" compete every saturday in the second half of the season against all the top corps at regionals. They never "raise their game" based on the competition that is at these regionals. No they do not raise their game as it is a pretty long process to get 150 or so people ALL to find a tempo more germiane to improving their rankings. I am sure that many will argue with me on this point and that is fine. Many will not, refuse to and or refute this fact of success and that is why there are people at the top and others, well... not so much... and many that fill the gaps inbetween. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 It isn't that they are working harder to compete with each other it is that these groups, probably even the very top groups already have an established "OPERATIONAL TEMPO" that exceeds those who do not share that same sense of urgency. This is common in the MILITARY as well as in business. Oh no. Now we have DoD jargon invading DCP. The END is NEAR !! As for your thesis that operational tempo is what separates the top from the middle of the pack, I'll agree that's it's a component of the difference. But I think you're overlooking a lot of other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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