drumno5 Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) Fred, I agree with this post in its entirety. You have actually summarized Boston's experience during this period quite accurately. And, I will repeat, I do NOT believe in any conspiracy theories, either now or in the recent past. My point about Boston and the top 12 was limited only to judges' EXPECTATIONS. Obviously, a 17th place drum corps with 35 horns is not in the mix for finals. Having said that, there were several years in which the corps seemed destined to make it into the top 12, only to fall short at the very end. (1990 comes to mind, when Dutch Boy, Sky Ryders, Spirt and Freelancers all suddenly blew past BAC in semi's, and again in 1994 when the corps came in 13th in Foxboro---). My point is that these placements I believe were influenced by judges' subconscious expectations about a non-top 12 corps...not conspiracy. Sure, fair enough - and sorry if I unfairly called anyone a conspiracy theorist (did I say that? ). It's just real tough down there on the bubble. Dutch Boy seemed like a pretty solid bet for finals in '88, for instance, until Sky Ryders blew in, seemingly from out of nowhere (iIrc, DB and Sky didn't meet head to head until semis that year) to bump them into 13th by a couple of tenths. Who was the better team? Was one more "deserving" (whatever that might mean) than the other? Were the judges influenced by Sky Ryders' status as an incumbent finalist? All valid questions, I suppose. I'm sure there are dozens of other examples, from every era. Who among us doesn't have a tale of woe somewhere in their competitive experience? Thanks for the dialogue, Fred O. Edited April 4, 2011 by drumno5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlooContraGuy Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) I though we knew well enough by now that if you want get any meaning from scores, that the individual number means nothing. It's the spread between numbers that's more significant. I meant to click the +1 for this, but honestly my thumb slipped! This is the truth! The number of one corps' score means next to nothing! It's all about how one corps performance relates to the corps before and after it, therefore, the spreads are the key. Any caption scores within 0.3 of each other is a virtual tie. That means that the judge recognizes that if they were perhaps standing at a different spot on the field - or if the corps lined up and performed again - they could have flipped placements in that judge's caption. If you look at the finals caption scores last year for brass Blue Devils:.19.80 Cavaliers:....19.40 Bluecoats:...19.30 Crown:.......19.20 Cadets:.......19.10 There is an obvious gap of 0.4 between the Cavaliers and BD, showing that the judge believed there to be an obvious gap in the brass performance between the two groups. Between the Cavaliers and the next three corps, there is only a 0.1 point difference between each of them! That judge is telling us through scores that they believed them to be so very close that if they were to line up again, there could have been a change in their opinion of placements. All of these scores are good! But the numbers don't matter. The space between is where the true information lies. Edited April 4, 2011 by BlooContraGuy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) Fred, I agree with this post in its entirety. You have actually summarized Boston's experience during this period quite accurately. And, I will repeat, I do NOT believe in any conspiracy theories, either now or in the recent past. My point about Boston and the top 12 was limited only to judges' EXPECTATIONS. Obviously, a 17th place drum corps with 35 horns is not in the mix for finals. Having said that, there were several years in which the corps seemed destined to make it into the top 12, only to fall short at the very end. (1990 comes to mind, when Dutch Boy, Sky Ryders, Spirt and Freelancers all suddenly blew past BAC in semi's, and again in 1994 when the corps came in 13th in Foxboro---). My point is that these placements I believe were influenced by judges' subconcious expectations about a non-top 12 corps...not conspiracy. As for the TOC, I simply do not know how it will pan out. I have great respect for BRASSO, but I wholeheartedly hope that he is wrong when he contends that a new competitive division has been created by this scheme. The truth is that the single best result for the TOC 8 proponents (and DCI on the whole) is for there to be a diferent TOC 8 next year...at least showing some fluidity within the group. Otherwise, BRASSO will have been proven correct, and we shall all have egg all over our faces. If one or more Corps ( Boston, Scouts, BK, Glassmen.. whomever ) are able to secure TOC spots this season, I'll gladly cook everybody some scrambled eggs. I'm not a big fan of scores and placements to begin with. But I do like fair and open competition where what you did in the past ( both good or bad ) has nothing to do with the current year's competition's venues, judge selections, marketing, revenue sharing, etc. No sport gives teams that finish at or near the top, first dips on the talent pool ( via draft ). Can you imagine how good the Pats, Steelers, Packers, etc would be every year if we gave them ( or the Super Bowl teams ) first dibs in the NFL Draft in the offseaason ? Not moved them down in the talent pool selection. Moved them up in the access to the talent pool as a result of their suceess. Well, we can " imagine " what this would be like. Except for a Corps or two, we'd have 25 years of DCI where 3 Corps win all the Titles. That's not " change you can believe in ", in my book. Now they've gone one step further and for this year, DCI has segmented the World Class Division into 2 separate Divisions to start out the competitive season.. and it's based on prior years competitive results ? I'll reserve judgment on this scheme until the season is over. But I think it has had the capacity to help a few " teams " already with the mere announcement of this Group Slotting Sytem to start out the competitive season in the DCI World Class Division for 2011. But who knows. We'll see. Edited April 4, 2011 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 ... Now they've gone one step further and for this year, DCI has segmented the World Class Division into 2 separate Divisions to start out the competitive season.. and it's based on prior years competitive results ? I'll reserve judgment on this scheme until the season is over. But I think it has had the capacity to help a few " teams " already with the mere announcement of this Group Slotting Sytem to start out the competitive season in the DCI World Class Division for 2011, imo. But who knows. We'll see. No. Correction. Brasso and certain other conspiracy seekers have segmented DCI into two divisions; DCI did no such thing. All DCI did was take an annual fact (eight corps have higher scores than all the rest) and created a marketing opportunity to leverage it. All other interpretations are the inventions of the respective authors, not DCI. HH 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) No. Correction. Brasso and certain other conspiracy seekers have segmented DCI into two divisions; DCI did no such thing. All DCI did was take an annual fact (eight corps have higher scores than all the rest) and created a marketing opportunity to leverage it. All other interpretations are the inventions of the respective authors, not DCI. HH lumping me in as a " conspiracy seeker " would be akin to my lumping you in as a pom pom waving cheerleader selected by the DCI office to wave your pom poms high for DCI on DCP in everything they inititate. Both caricatures are inaccurate. The difference is that you have called me a " conspiracy seeker " but I did not call you a DCI " cheerleader ". I accept the " fact " of previous scores and placements. I never said otherwise. DCI did in "fact" subdivide the World Class Division into 2 groups starting out the competitive season in the World Class Division for 2011. And it is a " fact " that this sub division was created based upon prior year's placements. What is speculative however is whether or not such a subdivision starting out the competitive season in June has provided some World Class Corps a competitive advantage ( among perhaps other things ) over other Wiorld Class Corps in the offseason, and early into the competitive seasaon of 2011. On this point, people may disagree. I did submit the potential of off season recruiting advantages that could accrue to such an announcement of the TOC. I did leave out the possibility that it would have no such effect at all. Perhaps you left unread my comments above on this point too. We don't really don't know right now what effect this all will have. So eveyone that does not possess the powers of clairvoyance, is really in the same boat as to what is over the water's horizon...and what it all will mean.. based upon the unprecedented DCI TOC slotting for some of the competitive venues for this season. The "fact" is, we're all in unchartered waters now on this. Edited April 4, 2011 by BRASSO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) ]I accept the " fact " of previous scores and placements. I never said otherwise. DCI did in "fact" subdivide the World Class Division into 2 groups starting out the competitive season in the World Class Division for 2011. And it is a " fact " that this sub division was created based upon prior year's placements. What is Please show the rules or announcement about this new competitive division in DCI. I must have missed that announcement. As far as I can tell there are still two divisions listed in all of DCI's material and website (Open and World). You're confusing your "spin" with fact, Brasso. You contend the judges are going to be bamboozled by DCI's marketing for the TOC into believing that *last year's* top 8 is the same as *this year's top 8*. While you certainly have a right to that opinion, many don't share it. And it's certainly not a "fact" that there's a new division in World Class. Edited April 4, 2011 by corpsband 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 lumping me in as a " conspiracy seeker " would be akin to my lumping you in as a pom pom waving cheerleader selected by the DCI office to wave your pom poms high for DCI on DCP in everything they inititate... Sounds like a conspiracy to me! HH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkfdPRphan Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 I STILL say, that IF there was a 33 show tour of just TOC corps AND THEN there would be finals in Indy just like last year, there WOULD BE AN ADVANTAGE being included in the TOC. BUT seeing there are only 4 SHOWS, TOC is merely a ticket selling option. Granted, the idea started out big. I think if the schedule had remained the same and there were 8 TOC shows, there could have been measurable differences in the scores.........now, not so much, actually not at all. EVERY non-TOC corps is going to be 'gunning' for a tour spot next year, even if it is to just prove that they should have been included this year. -can't wait for June! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) Please show the rules or announcement about this new competitive division in DCI. I must have missed that announcement. As far as I can tell there are still two divisions listed in all of DCI's material and website (Open and World). You're confusing your "spin" with fact, Brasso. You contend the judges are going to be bamboozled by DCI's marketing for the TOC into believing that *last year's* top 8 is the same as *this year's top 8*. While you certainly have a right to that opinion, many don't share it. And it's certainly not a "fact" that there's a new division in World Class. I can't comment on what you missed or did not miss regarding DCI announcements. I can however comment on what you might have missed on my comments on this thread. I did not state that a " new competitive division " was created in DCI. One would be hard pressed to show where I said this on this thread. Before we can have a good dialogue it is imperative it seems to me that a mistatement on anyone's remarks not be the beginning point, as whatever follows after that is derived from a faulty premise. So to set the record straight, your comments are based upon your thinking that I said here that DCI has created a " new competitive diviision in DCI ". I've never said such a thing at all. Additionally, your comments are based upon your belief that I said that the judges " are going to be bamboozled by DCI's martketing of the TOC " and that there will be" no changes in the top 8" this year as a result. Once again, I never said such a thing. I never even spoke with any degree of speculation about what might happen at Finals... one way or the other. I have no opinion right now on whether or not they'll be changes in the top 8 come finals. Do you see this speculation or prediction above from me on this thread ? And if so, where did I predict the top 8 for this year as being the TOC ? If you look, you'll see it's not there. The only thing I spoke to on this thread is the POTENTIAL for an offseason recruiting advantage that might accrue to the TOC slotted World Class Division Corps. Beyond this, the notion that I'm a conspiratist or that I'm predicting now that they'll be no changes in the Final 8 from the TOC slotted grouping simply doesn't pass muster. People here are entitled to disagree wth me on things. No problem. But they don't have the entitlement to totally miscontrue my position and what I said here on this thread. Edited April 4, 2011 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) I can't comment on what you missed or did not miss regarding DCI announcements. I can however comment on what you might have missed on my comments on this thread. I did not state that a " new competitive division " was created in DCI. One would be hard pressed to show where I said this on this thread. Before we can have a good dialogue it is imperative it seems to me that a mistatement on anyone's remarks not be the beginning point, as whatever follows after that is derived from a faulty premise. So to set the record straight, your comments are based upon your thinking that I said here that DCI has created a " new competitive diviision in DCI ". I've never said such a thing at all. Additionally, your comments are based upon your belief that I said that the judges " are going to be bamboozled by DCI's martketing of the TOC and that there will be no changes in the top 8 this year as a result. Once again, I never said such a thing. I never even spoke with any degree of either spoeculation nor certainty about what might happen at Finals... one way or the other. I have no opinion right now on wheter or not they'll be changes in thre top 8 come finals. Do you see this above from me on this thread ? And if so, where did I predict the top 8 for this year as being the TOC ? If yo look, you'll see it's not there. The only thing i spoke to on this thread is the POTENTIAL for an offseason recruiting advantage that might accrue to the TOC. Beyond this, the notion that I'm a consiratist or that I'm predicting now that they'll be no changes in the Final 8 from the TOC slotted grouping simply doesn't pass muster. Some people are entitled to diagree wth me on things. No problem. But they don't have the entitlement to miscontrue what I said. If DCP's search function wasn't so lame I could probably find the posts -- it was in an older thread where you explained your theory about this entire topic. Found the post In any case your own words "the POTENTIAL for an offseason recruiting advantage that might accrue to the TOC" hardly constitues creating a new division in DCI. Or does " DCI has segmented the World Class Division into 2 separate Divisions to start out the competitive season" not mean there's a new division? Segmenting one division into two sure sounds like a new division to me !! (and here I am feeding this bait as I said I wouldn't -- CURSE YOU DCP !! ) Edited April 4, 2011 by corpsband 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.