BRASSO Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) Do you think the current top 8 now have more of a recruiting advantage than the top 8 from previous years did? I'm not sure. But I think this new TOC concept COULD provide such a recruiting advantage in the offseason for the TOC Corps. I wouldn't rule it out. For example, I wouldn't view it as unthinkable that a marcher who was undecided between 2 Corps, ( one a TOC Corps, the other not ) might opt for the TOC Corps over the non TOC Corps because of the better venues and better DCI marketing that will be put in place for some Corps, but not for others in the same division. I recognize many factors go into a marcher's decision on which Corps camp to go to. Would you rule out entirely the possibility that a TOC Corps might have an advantage in this offseason in the assembly of talent due to the announcement of the TOC Corps and their attractive venue shows and better marketing that'll be put in place for them this season ? As for previous years, DCI has never had an offseason where a TOC concept of additional marketing and additional show venues for some World Class Corps was announced in advance before the next year's competition season... and in which previous years scores and placements determined the following years additional marketing and better show venues put in place for them. This is all pretty much unprecedented, I think we can safely say. Edited April 5, 2011 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 ... I never uttered a word about judging conspiracy... This seems to be pretty much a "judging conspiracy" statement to me... "It is an advantage on the field of competition before the judges, as these Corps proposal called for them to be able to hand pick their judges in the future for their G-8. ( Say you're a DCI judge, do you want to stay at the Howard Johnson's Inn in Cabbage Patch judging the non G-8 in 2012, or be in a better hotel the night before the G-8 Competition smoozing with all the College and High School Band Directors, Equipment Mfg. hoi poloi in the hotel bar and lobby of the big city ? Which do you suppose is a better career move for you in the summer ? )" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 I wasn't referring to scores, since I've noticed the same trends in the past, but I was referring more to rankings. If a corps like Boston or Madison is scoring higher than SCV or Blue Stars or Phantom, then no judge will drop them down below them at Finals just to preserve the "slotting" people seem to see. All corps get a fair shake at Finals week, if they perform well, then they will be scored well. If they put in the work, then the judges will reward them as such. honestly, any more, it seems you know the order going into finals week. maybe one or two small changes, but rarely anything major anymore. 08 is that very rare exception, and you could see that coming at Allentown 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerriTroop Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Just a quick response to those who noted that I misunderstood a post in my longer, and maybe not terribly nice, response: Sometimes we have bad days. I had a bad reading comprehension day. My apologies if I came off snooty in my replies about the dropping of scores, which really didn't address the post I was originally quoting. I don't often have that bad of a comprehension day, but I did this time. Having said that, I do have some concerns about the ToC format and its impact on placements, but I just have to wait and we see what happens this year. If my concerns are proven unfounded, then cool beans and all that. (at least until the next year.... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 I'm not sure. But I think this new TOC concept COULD provide such a recruiting advantage in the offseason for the TOC Corps. I wouldn't rule it out. For example, I wouldn't view it as unthinkable that a marcher who was undecided between 2 Corps, ( one a TOC Corps, the other not ) might opt for the TOC Corps over the non TOC Corps because of the better venues and better DCI marketing that will be put in place for some Corps, but not for others in the same division. I recognize many factors go into a marcher's decision on which Corps camp to go to. Would you rule out entirely the possibility that a TOC Corps might have an advantage in this offseason in the assembly of talent due to the announcement of the TOC Corps and their attractive venue shows and better marketing that'll be put in place for them this season ? As for previous years, DCI has never had an offseason where a TOC concept of additional marketing and additional show venues for some World Class Corps was announced in advance before the next year's competition season... and in which previous years scores and placements determined the following years additional marketing and better show venues put in place for them. This is all pretty much unprecedented, I think we can safely say. I agree, but IMO this has always happened and you can just replace "TOC" with "top 8". IMO the fact that you've seen movement in and out of the top 8 consistently over the years is all the proof necessary to feel comfortable that you'll see consistent movement in and out of the "TOC". I guess time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerriTroop Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 I agree, but IMO this has always happened and you can just replace "TOC" with "top 8". IMO the fact that you've seen movement in and out of the top 8 consistently over the years is all the proof necessary to feel comfortable that you'll see consistent movement in and out of the "TOC". I guess time will tell. I agree that this has been happening for a long time already. However, the difference that I'm concerned about are the shows that feature only ToC corps. There will be people who will not be near another show or won't/can't go to more than one show. First-time or casual viewers won't see the full range of corps out there competing, including smaller local corps. While there is no official "division" by DCI, I have to wonder what the perception will be by the more novice attendees out there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) This seems to be pretty much a "judging conspiracy" statement to me... "It is an advantage on the field of competition before the judges, as these Corps proposal called for them to be able to hand pick their judges in the future for their G-8. ( Say you're a DCI judge, do you want to stay at the Howard Johnson's Inn in Cabbage Patch judging the non G-8 in 2012, or be in a better hotel the night before the G-8 Competition smoozing with all the College and High School Band Directors, Equipment Mfg. hoi poloi in the hotel bar and lobby of the big city ? Which do you suppose is a better career move for you in the summer ? )" I just assumed that people understood that the " G-8 proposal " ( originally a G- 7 ) is NOT the" Tour Of Champions " show format. These comments you cited by me from another thread awhile back were on the" G-8 proposal". Not from this thread that deals with the TOC and what effect if any it could have on Finals placements. My comments above that you've quoted related to the G-8 proposal that ( among other things ) called for the G-8 Corps to hand pick their judges. That was not speculation. It was in their initial proposal. That G-8 proposal was tabled after the proponents were replaced on the Executive Board by a new Executive Board. Subsequent to that, all parties agreed to allow a trial one year experiment with the TOC. My understanding is that the TOC Corps will NOT be hand picking their judges for their shows.That portion was roundly rejected by DCI voting members. Thus, my factual statement here that the G-8 proposal called for these Corps tp hand pick their judges for their shows is not applicable at all to the TOC format that was adopted after the G-8 proposal was tabled, and DCI voted instead for the TOC format. ' Hope this clarifies the timeline for you, and what these comments you quoted from me were responding too. Had the G-8 proposal gone through, it would have allowed the G-8 Corps to hand pick their judges, give themselves double the votes in DCI, killed off the Open Class and 2 dozen Corps, provided a higher percentage of the gate receipts for themselves, stripped entirely the voting privleges of some DCI Corps, layed off much of the staff at DCI HQ, fIred the current DCI CEO, and so forth. That wasn't a " conspiracy ". That was real. But it was stopped in it's tracks within 72 hours by the other voting members in DCI. I have no reason to believe ( at present ) that the TOC concept that has been subsequently adopted will lead to a " judging conspiracy " that advantages the G-8. And I've never said this either. All this said, the TOC does bear watching as to what effect it will have on all matters that relate to the activity, to Corps, to judges and to fans alike. Assume nothing, seems to be a wise choice right now, imo. Edited April 5, 2011 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkfdPRphan Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 I agree that this has been happening for a long time already. However, the difference that I'm concerned about are the shows that feature only ToC corps. There will be people who will not be near another show or won't/can't go to more than one show. First-time or casual viewers won't see the full range of corps out there competing, including smaller local corps. While there is no official "division" by DCI, I have to wonder what the perception will be by the more novice attendees out there. I can appreciate and understand your concern! In my opinion, this TOC tour is being used to attract the 'novice attendees' - perhaps in hopes of drawing them into a 'more normal' (my words) corps contest that has a wider range of corps playing. Not sure if it will help when a newbie attends a show with all TOC corps and then goes to a show that has less seasoned members. Its like going to a play on Broadway in New York - will attending a play by your local community theater players be less appreciated? Drawing in new people to Drum Corps - GREAT! Setting realistic expectations for next drum corps show attended - MAYBE. Giving any corps an advantage by being in the TOC - RECOGNITION, MAYBE - higher scores in Indy - DOUBTFUL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 The TOC provides no advantage for top eight corps that they didn't already have by virtue of their top eight status. Anyone who says otherwise is selling snake oil; don't buy it. HH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) The TOC provides no advantage for top eight corps that they didn't already have by virtue of their top eight status. Anyone who says otherwise is selling snake oil; don't buy it. HH Unless you're selling carot card or crystal ball readings for fans, etc you have no way of knowing this. Nobody does. The TOC is a brand new concept that has been implemented on a trial basis for this season. The notion that anyone can say with certainty on it's effects ( or non effects ) is engaging in navel gazing at best, imo. Edited April 5, 2011 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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