Will non TOC corps get a fair shake at Finals?

[BRASSO]

If DCP's search function wasn't so lame I could probably find the posts -- it was in an older thread where you explained your theory about this entire topic. Found the post

In any case your own words "the POTENTIAL for an offseason recruiting advantage that might accrue to the TOC" hardly constitues creating a new division in DCI.

Or does " DCI has segmented the World Class Division into 2 separate Divisions to start out the competitive season" not mean there's a new division? Segmenting one division into two sure sounds like a new division to me !!

Yes.. my comment " the potential for an offseason recruiting advantage that might accrue to the TOC Corps " hardly means that " there's a new Division created in DCI ". We agree on this point... by virtue of the fact that nobody said such a thing. Also, if one reads my comments above, I also left the door open that I could be wrong and that no such offseason recruiting advantage may have taken place. I said as much. I only raised it as a question. I did state that DCI has slotted the World Class Division into 2 groups to start the season. What I left open to speculation, is to what effect this will have this year. I do leave open the potential for this to be an unfair competitive situation. This is news to people ? My position on the OP's question however " will the non TOC Corps get a fair shake at Finals is a very clear : I .. DON'T... KNOW. Now, if a few others want to speculate now that the TOC slotting will have no effect whatsoever on scores and placements for this year, fine. That's their opinion. And far be it for me to attack them for their opinion on this either. In my opinion, nobody knows. And a simple reading from this above should make that clear that this is my current opinion and position on this. ( and if not, I just repeated it once again )

Edited April 4, 2011 by BRASSO

[corpsband]

Yes.. my comment " the potential for an offseason recruiting advantage that might accrue to the TOC Corps " hardly means that " there's a new Division created in DCI ". We agree on this point... by virtue of the fact that nobody said such a thing. Also, if one reads my comments above, I also left the door open that I could be wrong and that no such offseason recruiting advantage may have taken place. I said as much. I only raised it as a question. I did state that DCI has slotted the World Class Division into 2 groups to start the season. What I left open to speculation, is to what effect this will have this year. My position on the OP's question " will the non TOC Corps get a fair shake at Finals is a very clear : I .. DON'T... KNOW. Now, if a few others want to speculate now that it will have no effect whatsoever, fine. That's their opinion. And far be it for me to attack them for their opinion on this too. In my opinion.. nobody knows. And a simple reading from this above should make that clear that this is my current opinion and position on this. ( and if not, I just repeated it once again )

Fantastic.

Then you're retracting your earlier position:

DCI has segmented the World Class Division into 2 separate Divisions to start out the competitive season

Glad I won't have to see any more talk about 2 separate "Divisions" (with a capital "D" no less) .

[BRASSO]

Fantastic.

Then you're retracting your earlier position:

Glad I won't have to see any more talk about 2 separate "Divisions" (with a capital "D" no less) .

That's correct. I did state this. I have not retracted anything at all. Nor do I see a need too. My guess, you might have struggled a bit with reading comprehension in school. I mean this as no disrespect, but it might account for what's at work here. My comments and position on the OP 's question is pretty clear from a simple reading too. ( ie," I don't know " ) I never uttered a word about judging conspiracy, new permanent divisions being set uop by DCI or that the TOC was a done deal at Finals, blah blah blah or any of such "conspiracy " nonsense. Trust me, if in the future I detect some grand conspiracy affront, you'll be the first to know, Corpsband. I'll even make sure to give you where the conspirators met to hatch out the deal and who was there, and who wasn't. Fair enough ?

Edited April 4, 2011 by BRASSO

[glory]

edited to reflect a change in the subject to which it was supposed to refer ...

HH

Edited April 4, 2011 by glory

[corpsband]

That's correct. I did state this. I have not retracted anything at all. Nor do I see a need too. My guess, you might have struggled a bit with reading comprehension in school. I mean this as no disrespect, but it might account for what's at work here. My comments and position on the OP 's question is pretty clear from a simple reading too. ( ie," I don't know " ) I never uttered a word about judging conspiracy, new permanent divisions being set uop by DCI or that the TOC was a done deal at Finals, blah blah blah or any of such "conspiracy " nonsense. Trust me, if in the future I detect some grand conspiracy affront, you'll be the first to know, Corpsband. I'll even make sure to give you where the conspirators met to hatch out the deal and who was there, and who wasn't. Fair enough ?

Oh I have no trouble understanding your posts. Like this one:

http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/index.php/topic/144362-more-toc-info-trickles-out/page__view__findpost__p__2973735

And you're backpedaling faster than a clown on a unicycle.

Which is just fine by me so long as you abide by your current view and we don't read any nonsense about new Divisions

[BRASSO]

Oh I have no trouble understanding your posts. Like this one:

http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/index.php/topic/144362-more-toc-info-trickles-out/page__view__findpost__p__2973735

And you're backpedaling faster than a clown on a unicycle.

Which is just fine by me so long as you abide by your current view and we don't read any nonsense about new Divisions

I said all that. None of it is imcompatible at all with my comment on this thread to the OP's question " will the non TOC Corps get a fair shake at Finals... AT FINALS ".

It's like asking us if the New York Yankees get an unfair advantage in the offseason, and if things are stacked to their advantage, etc .One would probably answer " yes " to all this. Then if we ask the follow up question, will the other teams get a " fair shake come the Playoffs ", we could likewise say " yes " or " I don't know ", and it all be perfectly consistent. The comments here are consistent with the position (s ) I've taken as a follow up as far as I'm concerned. I see no reason to parse my words either as it's pretty clear what my opinions are on this. For you to interpret from my remarks that I said the TOC Corps will be the top 8 and that I'm " backpedalling " and all that, is a wrong interpretation of my remarks too. I said " I don't know " if the non DCI Corps will get a fair shake come FINALS. I also never said the TOC will be the placements at Finals. And none of my comments from last month are incompatible with my " I don't know " answer on this thread to the OP's question either.

Look, there are 3 plausable outcomes regarding the group slotting system created this year within the World Class Division it seems to me : 1 )absolutely no effect on scores and placements ( I assume you are in this camp ) 2) not sure of the effect on scores and placements ( I'm in this camp at present ) or 3) a direct effect on the scores and placement at Finals ( either as the result of conspiratorial forces, or just as luck has it, the placements coincidentally fall into such order ). Your attempt to put me in the 3rd, or the 1st camp, is unpersuadable for me at present. But I'm a work in progress. And the season will tell us more. And I'm amenable to change, and amenable to be proven wrong too. One would assume all other posters here are open minded to a change in their position as events unfold this season too. I can't accept certitude right now on anything ( for example the" no effect" #1 crowd ) that could occur when we're talking about the future here. But I see no need to attack you or a few others for what you see in your crystal ball either. It's your crystal ball. Not mine. Just don't try and tell me I said I'm seeing Oliver Stone in my crystal ball Corpsband. That doesn't pass the smell test, let alone the sight test.

Edited April 4, 2011 by BRASSO

[BozzlyB]

If one or more Corps ( Boston, Scouts, BK, Glassmen.. whomever ) are able to secure TOC spots this season, I'll gladly cook everybody some scrambled eggs. I'm not a big fan of scores and placements to begin with. But I do like fair and open competition where what you did in the past ( both good or bad ) has nothing to do with the current year's competition's venues, judge selections, marketing, revenue sharing, etc. No sport gives teams that finish at or near the top, first dips on the talent pool ( via draft ). Can you imagine how good the Pats, Steelers, Packers, etc would be every year if we gave them ( or the Super Bowl teams ) first dibs in the NFL Draft in the offseaason ? Not moved them down in the talent pool selection. Moved them up in the access to the talent pool as a result of their suceess. Well, we can " imagine " what this would be like. Except for a Corps or two, we'd have 25 years of DCI where 3 Corps win all the Titles. That's not " change you can believe in ", in my book. Now they've gone one step further and for this year, DCI has segmented the World Class Division into 2 separate Divisions to start out the competitive season.. and it's based on prior years competitive results ? I'll reserve judgment on this scheme until the season is over. But I think it has had the capacity to help a few " teams " already with the mere announcement of this Group Slotting Sytem to start out the competitive season in the DCI World Class Division for 2011. But who knows. We'll see.

And what if none of those corps are better than any of the TOC corps? Then you'll get a motherload of "see told you so it's a new slotting mechanism for the stuck up Elite 8!!"

[BRASSO]

And what if none of those corps are better than any of the TOC corps? Then you'll get a motherload of "see told you so it's a new slotting mechanism for the stuck up Elite 8!!"

Possibly. It will then be up to those who say this to make a compelling case for that position. And likewise for those who believe the TOC received no competitive advantage to try and persuade others why they saw no competitive advantage. What's wrong with this should it actually occur ? It's called " discussion ". That's what we do here. It'd be a pretty boring place if we all thought alike. If you don't want a " motherlode " of posters to put forth such a future comment, then who knows, perhaps the TOC will have a replacement Corps or two, and the discussion might be a " motherlode " of excuses for the Corps that suffered placement slide too. Again, that's called " discussion. It's called diversity of opinion. That's good. Not bad.

[BozzlyB]

Possibly. It will then be up to those who say this to make a compelling case for that position. And likewise for those who believe the TOC received no competitive advantage to try and persuade others why they saw no competitive advantage. What's wrong with this should it actually occur ? It's called " discussion ". That's what we do here. It'd be a pretty boring place if we all thought alike. If you don't want a " motherlode " of posters to put forth such a future comment, then who knows, perhaps the TOC will have a replacement Corps or two, and the discussion might be a " motherlode " of excuses for the Corps that suffered placement slide too. Again, that's called " discussion. It's called diversity of opinion. That's good. Not bad.

Do you think the current top 8 now have more of a recruiting advantage than the top 8 from previous years did? I would argue they do not, as a result of the TOC designation have any more advantage than they ever did before. With that said I agree with you that from year to year the higher placing corps have the overall competitive advantage, but that isn't the fault of the TOC corps.

[charlie1223]

I said all that. None of it is imcompatible at all with my comment on this thread to the OP's question " will the non TOC Corps get a fair shake at Finals... AT FINALS ".

It's like asking us if the New York Yankees get an unfair advantage in the offseason, and if things are stacked to their advantage, etc .One would probably answer " yes " to all this. Then if we ask the follow up question, will the other teams get a " fair shake come the Playoffs ", we could likewise say " yes " or " I don't know ", and it all be perfectly consistent. The comments here are consistent with the position (s ) I've taken as a follow up as far as I'm concerned. I see no reason to parse my words either as it's pretty clear what my opinions are on this. For you to interpret from my remarks that I said the TOC Corps will be the top 8 and that I'm " backpedalling " and all that, is a wrong interpretation of my remarks too. I said " I don't know " if the non DCI Corps will get a fair shake come FINALS. I also never said the TOC will be the placements at Finals. And none of my comments from last month are incompatible with my " I don't know " answer on this thread to the OP's question either.

Look, there are 3 plausable outcomes regarding the group slotting system created this year within the World Class Division it seems to me : 1 )absolutely no effect on scores and placements ( I assume you are in this camp ) 2) not sure of the effect on scores and placements ( I'm in this camp at present ) or 3) a direct effect on the scores and placement at Finals ( either as the result of conspiratorial forces, or just as luck has it, the placements coincidentally fall into such order ). Your attempt to put me in the 3rd, or the 1st camp, is unpersuadable for me at present. But I'm a work in progress. And the season will tell us more. And I'm amenable to change, and amenable to be proven wrong too. One would assume all other posters here are open minded to a change in their position as events unfold this season too. I can't accept certitude right now on anything ( for example the" no effect" #1 crowd ) that could occur when we're talking about the future here. But I see no need to attack you or a few others for what you see in your crystal ball either. It's your crystal ball. Not mine. Just don't try and tell me I said I'm seeing Oliver Stone in my crystal ball Corpsband. That doesn't pass the smell test, let alone the sight test.

Question:

If the Top 8 from last year is exactly the same as the top 8 this year are you going to be complaining about how the judging system is forever skewed? Or will you recognize that the top 8 from this year deserved their ranking yet again?