Is the end of drum corps near?

[BRASSO]

I don't think it is at all healthy for teenagers to be in the same groups as adults. If they are doing this with their parents, I think that is also unhealthy in many ways. Kids in their teens need to start to learn how to be effective and responsible AWAY from their parents, not do more things with their parents hovering over them.

Sure, there may be some exceptions, but I do not see this as something kids will turn to in any significant numbers. Most kids seek out an experience that is more demanding than their high school marching band. DCA isn't that.

What are you talking about ? Teenagers in DCI Corps spend far more time far away from their parents and on overnight long trips in these summer tours with unrelated adults than do teenagers in DCA Corps.

Are you saying that teenagers who are away for 7 weeks on long trips with unrelated adults in DCI Corps are engaged in " unhealthy " situations as well ? Teenagers who march DCA are subjected to no less unhealthy situations than any teenage marcher in a DCI Corps that typically marches in much more overnight travel, much further away from home, and for much longer stretches too, in the summer. Also, the fact remains that just as many ( if not more ) DCI Corps over the years have had to remove adult staff due to " incidents " with minors on tours than have DCA Corps. My guess, we can attribute your ridiculous comments here to your complete lack of any personal marching experience with a DCA Corps. Otherwise, it makes no sense to me at all.

Edited April 24, 2011 by BRASSO

[JimF-LowBari]

What hastens the end of Drum Corps? Spreading lies about and general bashing the other circuits(s). Especially since DCADCI (only one person caught this) and DCA have had connections over the decades thru staff, members, performing at each others shows, etc, etc. And I can remember the examples I gave back in the late 70s.

Also forgot to aid in my previous post, rules about (against)underage/underage sex while with the corps of on the way to/from corps functions. Big worry in my day...

Edited April 25, 2011 by JimF-LowBari

[danielray]

So, by this logic, all drum corps should be run by staffs made up of peers of the marching members, right? Cub Scouts should be run by boys not over the age of 11? Fox holes should only have men of similar ages in them, right? Colleges should prevent older adults from taking classes with younger students? The list is endless.

Teenagers mimic the influences around them. If the adults are acting like adults the teenagers learn to act like adults. To restrict that influence risks allowing the untrained inmates the opportunity to run the asylum.

Strange.... seems there might be a bug on DCP, causing everything I post to be taken to the literal extreme. :-)

You've admitted little substantiation for the opinions you've been posting here recently. Readers would do well to keep this fact in mind when considering your words above as appropriate adult behavior.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't an opinion that is well-substantiated no longer an opinion? :-)

[Stu]

OK, got your meaning now. And was not suggesting DCA as a replacement for DCI, two toally different animals.

Now a blurb from someone who joined a Sr corps at age 16 (HS Jr) and left when he graduated college. And keep in mind we did not have any parent/child groupings in our corps. Some older/younger brothers/sistera and that was it. Reading posts from DCPer's I marched with like schmoburg, jaminben, BigW (all joined while in HS) and see their experiences were pretty much like mine. Basically joining a group with a lot of adults to do Drum Corps was a BIG plus in growing up. Let's face it, up to then we hung with people our own age group and if they were MB mates, then our own experiences. In corps we were teenage to probably close to 40 with ex-vets, manageers, teachers, (ton of) fellow students and the like. For the first time we were really working with people from different backgrounds/life experiences and TREATED EQUALLY. (Hey the judges didn't look at our age.) Nothing like a drill instructor giving me Hell for screwing up one time and then giving a guy with 10+ years experience the same level of Hell the next time to make you feel equal. Since then I have been overseas a few times with people of different cultures and races. I've been invited back to some for later work and told it was because I treated them.. well like there wasn't any differences. And I still feel this is the biggest thign I learned in a Sr corps.

Now why is people of different ages working/being together in corps such a scarey ###ed idea? Smart corps management sets rules about underage drinking, under/overaged sexual issues, etc and follows thru. IOW - you don't follow the rules, you're out.

JimF: That is a very touching story and I am glad that you gained so much from those experiences in DCA. So, allow me to change just some of your own wording that fits my situation and was equally life changing in DCI. (Basically joining a group with a lot of extremely high quality performers to do Drum Corps was a BIG plus in growing up. Let's face it, up to then we hung with people our own age group that did not play very well and did not care about being the best of the best. In corps we were teenage to 21 with fellow students and the like who demanded excellence at all times. For the first time we were really working with people from different backgrounds/life experiences that desired the best and we were TREATED EQUALLY. Hey the judges didn't look at our age just our quality. Nothing like a drill instructor giving me Hell for screwing up one time and then giving a guy with 3+ years experience the same level of Hell the next time because the demand was excellence at all times.)

Edited April 24, 2011 by Stu

[danielray]

OK, I can't decide which of these comments is the more ignorant one. Are you seriously suggesting that every HS marching band program is more demanding than every DCA corps program? Before we even start to argue about the wide range of competitive HS bands, let me remind you that 80% of high schools do not have a competitive marching band to begin with. And then there's college....

Here are some interesting stats (can't validate them since they don't list their source, but this reference is an initiative supported by groups like NAMM and MusicforAll, etc.

Anyway....

• Since 1940, over 110 million Americans have participated in school bands.
  
• 2.2 million middle & high school students are currently enrolled as band members in the U.S.
  
• 300,000 college students are also enrolled.
  
• There are approximately 27,000 school marching bands nationally.
  
• Internationally, there are approximately 10,000 school marching bands in 20 countries.
  
• 1 million people watch The Rose Bowl Parade in person with a combined worldwide audience of over 300 million in 90 countries.
  

http://thesoundofperfection.com/support-music-education/

That is a hell of a lot of kids participating in marching band... 2.2 million kids in band programs in the country is huge.

With 300,000 college students enrolled in band programs... and only a small fraction of those participating in drum corps... this indicates that there is some serious gap that needs to be bridged.

My guess is that there is a significant number of kids out there that have the talent and interest to participate in drum corps, but lack the financial means when combined with other financial demands like studies. I'm only guessing, but these numbers would probably be enough to fill a few full corps.

It could be quite valuable to conduct an informal survey of these college band students to get a better understanding of why they don't participate and see how to bridge that gap.

Edited April 24, 2011 by danielray

[danielray]

What are you talking about ? Teenagers in DCI Corps spend far more time far away from their parents and on overnight long trips in these summer tours with unrelated adults than do teenagers in DCA Corps.

Are you saying that teenagers who are away for 7 weeks on long trips with unrelated adults in DCI Corps are engaged in " unhealthy " situations as well ? Teenagers who march DCA are subjected to no less unhealthy situations than any teenage marcher in a DCI Corps that typically marches in much more overnight travel, much further away from home, and for much longer stretches too, in the summer. Also, the fact remains that just as many ( if not more ) DCI Corps over the years have had to remove adult staff due to " incidents " with minors on tours than have DCA Corps.

I think it is HEALTHY for kids to be AWAY from their parents, but with mostly other KIDS... guided by several adults... not as part of an adult group.

My guess, we can attribute your ridiculous comments here to your complete lack of any personal marching experience with a DCA Corps. Otherwise, it makes no sense to me at all.

Correct, I have never participated in DCA. Apart from it being pretty much a Northeast thing (with a few isolated exceptions), it doesn't much appeal to me. It is like going now to watch the 1980 Olympic figure skaters perform.

[Stu]

Here are some interesting stats (can't validate them since they don't list their source, but this reference is an initiative supporting by groups like NAMM and MusicforAll, etc.

Anyway....

• Since 1940, over 110 million Americans have participated in school bands.
  
• 2.2 million middle & high school students are currently enrolled as band members in the U.S.
  
• 300,000 college students are also enrolled.
  
• There are approximately 27,000 school marching bands nationally.
  
• Internationally, there are approximately 10,000 school marching bands in 20 countries.
  
• 1 million people watch The Rose Bowl Parade in person with a combined worldwide audience of over 300 million in 90 countries.
  

http://thesoundofperfection.com/support-music-education/

That is a hell of a lot of kids participating in marching band... 2.2 kids in band programs in the country is huge.

With 300,000 college students enrolled in band programs... and only a small fraction of those participating in drum corps... this indicates that there is some serious gap that needs to be bridged.

My guess is that there is a significant number of kids out there that have the talent and interest to participate in drum corps, but lack the financial means when combined with other financial demands like studies. I'm only guessing, but these numbers would probably be enough to fill a few full corps.

It could be quite valuable to conduct an informal survey of these college band students to get a better understanding of why they don't participate and see how to bridge that gap.

If you look at the number of scholastic band programs increasing from 1940 to the present you will also see the number of local drum corps decreasing. I am not going to claim causation here but I will claim correlation due to the similarities of the activities. Part of that situation was that local kids who were being served by the local drum corps shifted over to being served more and more with a similar activity at school. Therefore, at some point the local drum corps' were no longer needed to fill that niche. Moreover, in today's situation a) why would a youth pay $2000 per year to march with a great BOA band "and" pay another $3000 per year to march with a top corps?; and b) why would a youth marching in an average band pay $1500 to march with a lower level corps, when the experiences that they receive at their respective schools are quite similar to those provided by drum corps? And by the way, if you begin lowering the cost per performer operational expenses within a high level WC drum corps the quality of that unit will go down proportionately.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Stu

[JimF-LowBari]

JimF: That is a very touching story and I am glad that you gained so much from those experiences in DCA. So, allow me to change just some of your own wording that fits my situation and was equally life changing in DCI. (Basically joining a group with a lot of extremely high quality performers to do Drum Corps was a BIG plus in growing up. Let's face it, up to then we hung with people our own age group that did not play very well and did not care about being the best of the best. In corps we were teenage to 21 with fellow students and the like who demanded excellence at all times. For the first time we were really working with people from different backgrounds/life experiences that desired the best and we were TREATED EQUALLY. Hey the judges didn't look at our age just our quality. Nothing like a drill instructor giving me Hell for screwing up one time and then giving a guy with 3+ years experience the same level of Hell the next time because the demand was excellence at all times.)

Cool, have posted the above before and finally someone responded with a DCI version. Always interested in how the circuits are more alike than different.

Will have to scan my favorite pic that shows how Westshore fit together in the late 70s. It's out triple line of 4 members and IIRC 2 High Schoolers, 1 college aged (but in the work force) and a guy in his last year after over a decade in two corps. LOL, that last guy was Jeff Reams dad.

Edited April 24, 2011 by JimF-LowBari

[MikeD]

DCA can be either healthy or unhealthy for kids of DCI age. If they march something like a senior corps befor they go into DCI, spoken from experience, it can be a great thing. I loved marching with the older members and hearing all of their stories from drum corps past. It was great! And it may be true that the average age of DCA corps is getting younger and younger. But what is the cause of that? I am not so sure it is because kids given the option would rather march a DCA corps. There is a huge possability that its because they dont want to pay $3000 a summer, at least not for multiple summers. So the other option is to gain experience through DCA. Which is not a bad thing at all. However, in my experience, marching a senior corps was more of a good time, than it was a way to prepare for DCI. And returning to DCA right after my DCI experience was rough. A lot of hurry up and wait. So maybe we need to focus on making competitive local circuits, with shorter tours. So kids dont have to pay an arm and a leg to march a more competitve group. Thoughts?

I think there a number of reasons, not just one. A sample:

Fewer junior age corps to age out of prior to joining a DCA corps. The old progression from junior-to-senior just isn't the norm anymore. Consider that back in the day there were a couple of hundred junior corps in the NY Metro area, more or less, that fed into a relative handful of senior corps, so even then the percentage moving from junior to senior was pretty low.

Cost of DCI tour is certainly a factor. You can get a VERY good experience in some of the DCA corps at a fraction the cost of DCI, if summer marching/music is your thing.

Improving reputation of DCA at least in my area. For a looong time the 'view' of DCA was hardly one supportive of integrating minors. That has undergone a huge, and welcome, change over time.

BTW...lots of junior age kids did march DCA back in the day. After Garfield fired George Tuthill after the 71 season, for example, a good chunk of our drumline moved to the Cabs where he was teaching...none of them close to being overage.

[audiodb]

Can't speak to the first part, but yes. As he said, there are exceptions, but I could throw a stick and hit 20 high school marching bands (ones that do not compete at BOA and never get close to making it to state) that are much harder then DCA.

And how many could you hit that aren't?

And it's not unique to Texas. There are decent marching bands and great marching bands all over the country. All of them are much more demanding then any finalist DCA show I've seen.

What DCA finalist shows have you seen?

There are HS bands of all shapes, sizes and levels of ability/demand. There are DCA corps of all shapes, sizes and levels of ability/demand. There is near-total overlap in levels of demand between the two activities. To make any kind of global statement about all of one activity's programs being more demanding than the other indicates that the person hasn't seen a full cross-section of both activities.