nysader Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Bones colorguard took 4th over Madison and Spirit. Nice nice. Herein lies the problem I have with the judging system. Rate your subcaption (caption) based upon what you think the corps has earned. Nowhere in the judging manuals does it say "leave room to slide other corps in above or below." There are criterion in place for the point system but t seems that is totally thrown out the window in favor of a "ranking" system. Based upon judging criteria, there should be no reason why would couldn't compare scores at different shows, but scoring has become so wildly inconsistent, why don't we just substitute this "ranking" system and throw out a number based system altogether? '94-'95 Colts Lead Sop I'll take a shot at judging tonight, I have internet, I follow scores, not being there I judge GE music ensemble, Caroline 8.2, Bluecoats,8.o, Madison,7.8, Boston 7.6. That easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) Herein lies the problem I have with the judging system. Rate your subcaption (caption) based upon what you think the corps has earned. Nowhere in the judging manuals does it say "leave room to slide other corps in above or below." There are criterion in place for the point system but t seems that is totally thrown out the window in favor of a "ranking" system. Based upon judging criteria, there should be no reason why would couldn't compare scores at different shows, but scoring has become so wildly inconsistent, why don't we just substitute this "ranking" system and throw out a number based system altogether? The judges go to the show. They don't live on an island with no radio, no communication with the outside world. They know they are going to be asked to compare Corps in which in this case the Bluecoats are added to the mix of traveling Corps where the Bluecoats were not part of the traveling mix before. Judges know who the Bluecoats are and what they've been scoring. Logic tells us that this should have no bearing on the scores. But since when did logic play a role in the scores and the spreads ? Unless a fan has been living on an isolated island themselves ( or is relatively new to the activity ) they understand the fact that these scores take into consideration past performance scores in which the mix of Corps is different that those that the judge will be asked to judge tonite. If we lessen the quality of Corps in a mix of Corps, scores tend to go up for those in the middle. If we add one or more quality Corps to the mix, naturally the scores tend to go down for the middle Corps when the higher quality Corps is added, no matter that they go on later. There is a difference between what should occur, and what historically has almost always occured. What has always ( almost always ) occurs is that when you add 1 or more higher quality Corps to a mix of Corps, the scores tend to go down for the middle Corps from when the quality Corps were not part of the mix. Tonite was an illustration of this. Again, it may not be right, nor logical, but thats for another thread topic. This one is dealing with the historical reality of what happens to the middle scoring Corps when we add to the mix another Corps of a higher quality level. Edited July 8, 2011 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griego4m Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Herein lies the problem I have with the judging system. Rate your subcaption (caption) based upon what you think the corps has earned. Nowhere in the judging manuals does it say "leave room to slide other corps in above or below." There are criterion in place for the point system but t seems that is totally thrown out the window in favor of a "ranking" system. Based upon judging criteria, there should be no reason why would couldn't compare scores at different shows, but scoring has become so wildly inconsistent, why don't we just substitute this "ranking" system and throw out a number based system altogether? '94-'95 Colts Lead Sop I'll take a shot at judging tonight, I have internet, I follow scores, not being there I judge GE music ensemble, Caroline 8.2, Bluecoats,8.o, Madison,7.8, Boston 7.6. That easy Sorry, Im just completely lost. I wont even bother. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Crap- yeah. Good point. fwiw unless you watched the jersey show and tonights show, it's almost impossible to say why the scores did what they did. People see ordered lists of numbers and read all kinds of stuff into them that just never entered the judges mind. they took the show a corps at a time and wrote down a number for their caption. end of story. someone else added them up and voila you have a score. same thing the judges in NJ did. opinions vary. performances vary. it's all good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nero14 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 fwiw unless you watched the jersey show and tonights show, it's almost impossible to say why the scores did what they did. People see ordered lists of numbers and read all kinds of stuff into them that just never entered the judges mind. they took the show a corps at a time and wrote down a number for their caption. end of story. someone else added them up and voila you have a score. same thing the judges in NJ did. opinions vary. performances vary. it's all good. I'll drink to that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMadMan Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 The judges go to the show. They don't live on an island with no radio, no communication with the outside world. They know they are going to be asked to compare Corps in which in this case the Bluecoats are added to the mix of traveling Corps where the Bluecoats were not part of the traveling mix before. Logic tells us that this should have no bearing on the scores. But since when did logic play a role in the scores and the spreads ? Unless a fan has been on an island ( or is relatively new to the activity ) they understand the fact that these scores take into consideration past performance scores in which the mix of Corps is different that those that the judge will be asked to judge tonite. If we lessen the quality of Corps in a mix of Corps, scores tend to go up for those in the middle. If we add one or more quality Corps to the mix, naturally the scores tend to go down for the middle Corps when the higher quality Corps is added, no matter that they go on later. There is a difference between what should occur, and what historically has almost always occured. What has always ( almost always ) occurs is that when you add 1 or more higher quality Corps to a mix of Corps, the scores tend to go down for the middle Corps from when the quality Corps were not part of the mix. Tonite was an illustration of this. Again, it may not be right, nor logical, but thats for another thread topic. This one is dealing with the historical reality of what happens to the middle scoring Corps when we add to the mix another Corps of a higher quality level. That doesn't necessarily hold true for Crown dropping tonight as well. But I guess my point is, score each corps in your caption against the criteria. Crossmen come on, score them against the criteria...Scouts come on, score them against the criteria, not against Spirit or Crossmen or what you think MIGHT happen....Bluecoats come on, score them against the criteria, not against Scouts, Boston, Crossmen, Spirit, Crown, etc. Every corps deserves that clean slate walking onto the field. They should each be scored against the criteria for that caption and not against one another. Put down the number that you think they earned in relation to what you are supposed to be looking for. Simple... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwscv87 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Brasso is completely in another solar system on this one. The only time you need to "leave room" is late in the season when scores become compressed at the top or perhaps in a show where there are a very large number of competitors all in the same class. No one needed to "leave room" at that show -- that's rubbish. That is not true. Scores are compressed all season for good reason. Every subcaption is divided into 5 boxes. 8-10 has different qualitative characteristics than 6-8. It can be just as tight in the 6-8 band in July as it is in the 8-10 band in August. If you know you have three or four corps that are likely to achieve at a level deserving of placement within a box then it makes sense that you would leave room early. There is no objective criteria that describes the difference between an 6.2 an 6.3 vs an 6.4 other than to say that the three corps that achieved those scores other than to say that those three corps performed at a level deserving of the bottom half of box 4. They all fit similar qualitative characteristics with very minor differences in quality You might hand out the 6.3 early leaving room above and below for other corps. I think it makes perfect sense and it is what has to happen in my opinion given the system in place. Note that my description of the score values may not be correct (not sure) but conceptually I think it is close. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Just got back from the show. Great night of drum corps. Stadium was quite filled with people. I'd say close to 6k or more. Some quick thoughts: 1. Crown - a very good show. Not quite as exciting as I thought it might be judging from what I had seen on the Fan Network. The first half is very nice, but the show stalls. They are marching very well, brass was lush and in tune, and very controlled. They need to work the last 3rd of this production. 2. Bluecoats - they were HOT tonight. Very nice performance and much much improved from what I saw on Fan Network and from spring training. Their percussion line was outstanding, the brass was tight, with crisp dynamics and big hits, and the guard is sporting some of the most eye-catching uniforms you will see this summer. The show will need some work to bring the middle ballad section to a more artistic climax. Very little phasing for a corps that spreads the field as much as Blooo. Really starting to like the closing music. Excellent groove. They just need to tweak and re-work a few things in the show to bring the theme to the audience a bit more, but as for talent they are really loaded. Once they clean they will be dangerous. 3. Madison Scouts - maybe the best opener on the field. Just electric! The middle section is really well done, too. Big brass sound, percussion is improved but not quite ready to compete with Bluecoats, BD, Cavies, Cadets. Guard was sloppy but exciting. Love the musical arrangements. Their downfall as of now is the last part of the closer. They need to re-work the drill some to better convey what the music is giving them. I felt that I should have been standing a minute before they finished, but it's not quite there yet. Some sloppy marching at times. Plenty to clean, but if they do I can see them giving Phantom and SCV a run. 4. Boston - I love this show. Not a super exciting, stand up and scream type of show. This is more subtle, artistic, and filled with some majestic fanfare. OUTSTANDING drill design here. Their visual ensemble content number had them in 2nd in that part of the caption. I might have had them in 1st in visual ensemble content. This has not been talked about much on DCP, but Boston has a stunning visual package that if the other components come into focus, they could be a dark horse for top 6. Brass is good and balanced. Percussion is good. I love the guard outfits, and the theme of the show is coming across. It's great to hear Les Miserables on the field again, along with 1812 Overture and some other stuff. Their only downfall is at the end: you can't play the power chords of 1812 in a company front and then wince away from the uptempo, double-tongue brass fanfare. I realize they wanted to go into more Les Miz, but the audience knows 1812 too well, so it ends up being a psych out and a let down. Re-write this, at least 16 measure or so, then bring back Les Miz. Otherwise, great show! One of my favorites of the night. Also, some wonderful solo playing in this show. 5. Spirit - LOUD, LOUD, LOUD! They have a big sound. Nice trumpet soloist. Music is fun, but the show lacks direction. The opening drill design was excellent, then it faded. Definitely a contender for top 12. 6. Crossmen - I liked their show a bit more than Spirit. The drill is more defined, taking the thoughts of the music from idea to idea. Music is fun and easy to listen to. They need some work, and I am not sure they can make top 12, but they will be a treat when it all starts clicking. 7. Pioneer - Not sure what happened with these guys. Last year they must have had 48 to 50 brass. This year: 20. The kids are good and do a wonderful job. The show is designed for a larger ensemble. The music needs more melodic development, especially when you're not big enough to effectively pull off the more complex arranging/orchestration styles in a large theater (field). Percussion was WAY too powerful for the brass (10 snares to 20 brass). They probably should have been an open class corps this year. Bravo to the kids for their performance! 8. Legends - Very nice job, folks! I especially congratulate their guard. They only have 3 and that makes things difficult. Those young ladies did a nice job. It's good to see this corps enjoying itself and loving the opportunity to perform. The show is good and entertaining. I would like to see more compact design to help improve the brass sound and musicianship. They spread the field almost too much. Those are my thoughts for now. Some great shows tonight. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 That doesn't necessarily hold true for Crown dropping tonight as well. But I guess my point is, score each corps in your caption against the criteria. Crossmen come on, score them against the criteria...Scouts come on, score them against the criteria, not against Spirit or Crossmen or what you think MIGHT happen....Bluecoats come on, score them against the criteria, not against Scouts, Boston, Crossmen, Spirit, Crown, etc. Every corps deserves that clean slate walking onto the field. They should each be scored against the criteria for that caption and not against one another. Put down the number that you think they earned in relation to what you are supposed to be looking for. Simple... And (mostly) that's what happens. The alternative is to believe that not only do the judges ignore the criteria on the sheet, they actively conspire in REAL TIME during the show to come up with numbers. Otherwise how in the world can they ensure the total score (which they have a small part in controlling) comes out right?? Sure there's some bias in judging -- but we accepted that in the first place by putting numbers on people's opinions. There's also numbers management issues that come in to play in certain situations. But for the vast majority of shows -- as much as we'd like to claim otherwise -- judging works as you describe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) In retrospect, that "competative edge" Article on DCI.org had it right about who would break 80 1st,,,,,, And the writer.. "wrote it down before they even went out and performed ". He writes it down. Someone else prints it up. Voila, you have an article. The guy apologizes. The article is proven to be correct tonite. Its all good. And lets not forget one more time.... " he wrote it down before they went out and performed ". There is no news here. Not really. By August, nobody will remember Akron, Ohio ( or any of these local shows for that matter ). Don't sweat the small stuff here. Seriously. Edited July 8, 2011 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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