Santa Clara Vanguard - GE Music and Brass Scores

[EuphMMXI]

Personally, i thought SCVs brass was the worst of the top 12.

[fsubone]

Gail would be having an absolute fit by now.

No, pretty #### sure he wouldn't be. Yeah, they're not winning, I'll give you that. But even during Gail's day, the Vanguard was about pushing things forward, doing music that hadn't been done before, and doing shows no one would think of. That's what the Vanguard has always been about. I hate to read when people say, "They're not Vanguard", because YES, THEY ARE. They're doing the shows that made them famous, cerebral, avant-garde shows, shows that make you think, and actually work, instead of just beating you over the head with a theme.

And there's nothing wrong with the staff. It's the first year for the brass staff. No staff walks in and makes a championship corps. It takes some time to make the adjustments, at least SCV is working towards consistency, which will help their placements in a few years. Just because Key isn't doing arrangements of "drum corps music" doesn't mean he needs to be canned. He's actually an amazing guy, and a great arranger. All he's been doing at SCV is taking the source music, and transporting it straight onto the field, without all of the "chop-and-bop" arranging people have been complaining. Guess some people are never satisfied unless they're complaining.

Oh, and on the recaps, one judge had them down, the other one had them in 7th for both captions. Get all the info next time before you try and start something, thanks.

[jwscv87]

Finally, to the person who commented about SCV not being able to compete consistently with BD, Cadets, Cavaliers (or the Cadevaliers), I will say this:

most other corps do not compete with them either. Occasionally Phantom, Bluecoats, and Crown jump in there; and SCV had a shot in 2004, as well as 98 and they did tie for the title in 99. BUT...most of the time nobody seems to be able to compete with the CaDevaLiers. Ask the rest of the activity how that's gone for them.

That is certainly a fair point, however there is a bit of a difference when comparing SCV occasionally competing at the highest level versus Bluecoats and Crown. For the first 20 years of the DCI era no corps was a more consistent top 3 performer than SCV. Intellectually any reasonable FMM and/or fan understands that that is no longer the case, but our hearts find it very difficult to let go of that past. We still want to place championship level expectations on the corps. I know I do. That certainly doesn't preclude me from enjoying the corps nor do I think we should be screaming for heads to roll.

Just a couple short years ago I think SCV produced the very best brass performance in our history - Ballet for Martha. I believe brass will be fine again, and I think the source material this year is very difficult. The corps has come a long way over the course of the season. While I pine for the days where only two corps had a shot at beating us, I am proud of what the corps has done this - and every year.

Edited August 12, 2011 by jwscv87

[craiga]

No, pretty #### sure he wouldn't be. Yeah, they're not winning, I'll give you that. But even during Gail's day, the Vanguard was about pushing things forward, doing music that hadn't been done before, and doing shows no one would think of. That's what the Vanguard has always been about. I hate to read when people say, "They're not Vanguard", because YES, THEY ARE. They're doing the shows that made them famous, cerebral, avant-garde shows, shows that make you think, and actually work, instead of just beating you over the head with a theme.

And there's nothing wrong with the staff. It's the first year for the brass staff. No staff walks in and makes a championship corps. It takes some time to make the adjustments, at least SCV is working towards consistency, which will help their placements in a few years. Just because Key isn't doing arrangements of "drum corps music" doesn't mean he needs to be canned. He's actually an amazing guy, and a great arranger. All he's been doing at SCV is taking the source music, and transporting it straight onto the field, without all of the "chop-and-bop" arranging people have been complaining. Guess some people are never satisfied unless they're complaining.

Oh, and on the recaps, one judge had them down, the other one had them in 7th for both captions. Get all the info next time before you try and start something, thanks.

fsubone, even though you quoted me, I am assuming most of what you said was not directed toward me. I haven't mentioned staff or scores. My point continues to be that SCV is an awesome drum corps that has been torpedoed by whomever it is who does their programming. You are right about Gail R and the scores, HOWEVER, my recollection of him was that he LOVED to get people out of their seats with emotional performances. 2011 is not that.

[fsubone]

fsubone, even though you quoted me, I am assuming most of what you said was not directed toward me. I haven't mentioned staff or scores. My point continues to be that SCV is an awesome drum corps that has been torpedoed by whomever it is who does their programming. You are right about Gail R and the scores, HOWEVER, my recollection of him was that he LOVED to get people out of their seats with emotional performances. 2011 is not that.

Yes, I was trying to catch everything in one post. While Gail did like crowd pleasing shows, he also tried to always push the envelope. And as strange as this is to say, gail isn't the director anymore. It's been 20 years since he left, but he's still watching over us. But other directors have come in, and brought santa clara to what it is today. Sometimes we need the cerebral and challenging shows in drum corps. And I can't imagine a bettwr corps for it than santa clara.

It's just so strange how much pressure is placed on scv's past. You never see people come on here and talk about jim jones and the troopers, or scott stewart and madison, or jerry seawright and bd. It seems only scv is tied down by a past director.

[Drum Corps Nation]

Simple: hard to get power when your whole show is dissonant. There is a science behind music involving sound waves, as you well know, and in tune, tonal music will generate more power and volume than dissonant music played with the same talent and effort.

Now when you're playing a dissonant show and you have intonation problems on top of that... disaster.

I heard SCV pre-season recording and they sounded horrendous. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw them in Oceanside, CA on 7/1, but their brass has improved only a small amount since then. It's a difficult book, no doubt about that, but the way it's arranged is almost setting the corps up for brass failure.

SCV has been able to generate power with dissonant music in the past (see 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, etc...)

You're right, there is a science behind all of this, but most of that has to do with perceived loudness, vs actual decible levels. While you might not get those overtones ringing with a dim7th chord, you can still play it loud, especially if you're able to use pure intonation.

It sounds to me like the brass staff is trying to keep the volume down and go for control, much like Cavaliers did in the early 2000s when people were like, "how come Cavaliers don't play loud?" The problem is, Cavaliers never did a show like this one during that era, and this approach doesn't seem to work in SCV's context. I don't see this approach ever working for SCV if they're going to continue to do the types of shows that SCV has become famous for.

A lot of people keep talking about 2004, but in the context of the 90s and 2000s, that was a very unusual show for SCV to do (much like 2009), not the kind of show that you usually get or expect from them. When I think of their style, I think of more of an avant guarde approach to drum corps, shows like 98, 99, 2000, 2001, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010. Those types of shows seem to be their niche in the activity, and I for one don't want that to go away. I think Fiedler and the former Cavaliers staff members are going to have to continue to work hard in order to blend their philosophies with SCV's identity.

[mscout05]

SCV will be fine. They are very young this year, and are adjusting to a new staff. The staff is in its first year, and they are all from the 2001-2006 Cavaliers era (with some new additions). The brass caption head is a close friend of mine, and is also adjusting to this new role. They have moments of brilliance, but it will take another year before they can really start perfecting their concept of sound. It's like Tiger Woods' golf swing. It takes time.

[PhantomCav]

SCV has been able to generate power with dissonant music in the past (see 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, etc...)

It sounds to me like the brass staff is trying to keep the volume down and go for control, much like Cavaliers did in the early 2000s when people were like, "how come Cavaliers don't play loud?" The problem is, Cavaliers never did a show like this one during that era, and this approach doesn't seem to work in SCV's context. I don't see this approach ever working for SCV if they're going to continue to do the types of shows that SCV has become famous for.

Maybe this is a nitpick, but I think it was more mid-to-late-2000s when the Cavaliers were quieter.

2000, 2002, and 2004 weren't quiet at all. I honestly haven't watched 2001 2003, or 2005 in a while, though.

Edited August 12, 2011 by PhantomCav

[Drum Corps Nation]

Maybe this is a nitpick, but I think it was more mid-to-late-2000s when the Cavaliers were quieter.

2000, 2002, and 2004 weren't quiet at all. I honestly haven't watched 2001 2003, or 2005 in a while, though.

Some of that has to do with recording from year to year. 2000 was loud, but 2001 on was relatively quiet in comparison to corps like Phantom, SCV, Cadets, BD, Crown, Bluecoats.

[oldskl3rings]

No, pretty #### sure he wouldn't be. Yeah, they're not winning, I'll give you that. But even during Gail's day, the Vanguard was about pushing things forward, doing music that hadn't been done before, and doing shows no one would think of. That's what the Vanguard has always been about. I hate to read when people say, "They're not Vanguard", because YES, THEY ARE. They're doing the shows that made them famous, cerebral, avant-garde shows, shows that make you think, and actually work, instead of just beating you over the head with a theme.

And there's nothing wrong with the staff. It's the first year for the brass staff. No staff walks in and makes a championship corps. It takes some time to make the adjustments, at least SCV is working towards consistency, which will help their placements in a few years. Just because Key isn't doing arrangements of "drum corps music" doesn't mean he needs to be canned. He's actually an amazing guy, and a great arranger. All he's been doing at SCV is taking the source music, and transporting it straight onto the field, without all of the "chop-and-bop" arranging people have been complaining. Guess some people are never satisfied unless they're complaining.

Oh, and on the recaps, one judge had them down, the other one had them in 7th for both captions. Get all the info next time before you try and start something, thanks.

Sorry Fsubone, but you are wrong about GR. Gail was all about being the best. He hated to lose and had no problem sacking his entire staff if he felt they weren’t living up to his expectations (WINNING). Certainly Gail wanted to expose the DC audience to more sophisticated music than the typical beat & blow that was predominant in the 60s. He also realized that part of winning was capturing the audience with melodic and emotional music. He would never endorse HIS corps doing “cerebral, avant-garde shows, shows that make you think, and actually work”. Gail’s shows would make you smile, cry and stand on your feet screaming with excitement, but never work.

Jim, Scott and Jerry were great directors, but they were more administrators. For many years Gail was the brass caption head and show coordinator. I believe Gail would be very disappointed in what has happened to HIS corps, with one exception, the members. He would be proud of the fact that the members still value and hold high the Vanguard’s tradition of class, hard work and commitment.