Props -- who's got 'em?

[perc2100]

Ignoring the obvious attacks in an attempt to incite some sort of overreactive comment

Don't think I made any "obvious attacks," and I certainly wasn't attempting to incite anything other than discussion. The words ignorant and naive are not attacks: I'm naive when it comes to law; I'm ignorant when it comes to medicine. Heck, I wouldn't have a problem if someone labeled me ignorant about upper-level high school math (my teacher's in HS certainly thought so)! Ignorance and naivety = someone doesn't know something: that's all. It's not that same as calling someone stupid, it's just pointing out that someone doesn't know something: in your case, if you honestly can't comprehend how Blue Devils' props in 2009 (chairs), 2010 (mirrors), and 2011 (house parts) then you are either naive when it comes to the intricacies of effect, or you are ignorant about what exactly Blue Devils were trying to achieve. That's not a bad thing, it's just seemingly a fact (or at least that's my conclusion)

I ask you this question(s):

Do you think that BD's props raised their GE scores? Do you think that what they did with those props was more visually effective than a good drill or guard moment would have been in their place?

I, again, DO NOT.

I think unequivocally BD's props in 2009, 2010, 2011 raised their GE scores (and visual scores): especially in 2009 and 2010. They way they used the mirrors to both obviously and subtly convey their visual theme was pretty brilliant. They way BD explored visual design on a vertical plane in 2009, as well as body sculpting, was very effective. In 2011 I personally was not a huge fan of that show, but there were some VERY cool moments with the props, and the way they "built" the house throughout the show to convey their theme was very effective.

Do I think what they did with the props was more visually effective than a good drill or guard moment: generally I think that, especially in 2010 with the mirrors. I think the chair stuff had some brilliant moments, but also some 'meh' moments, with the highlights making them worth-while: same with the house stuff last year. It's hard to "commit" to props for a full show, and I think BD more than anyone else recently has been effective in putting the props front/center when most beneficial, while effectively 'blending' the props when the props are the focal point. I think 2011 is the most "questionable" use of props from them lately, as I think the 'lowlights' of prop use were more than the 'highlights.'

Now, I think instead of complaining about BD's props, you could have a FAR more interesting conversation about other corps:

* Cadets 2011 - the "ketchup & mustard" effect was a cute gimmick that I think was neat but unnecessary. It worked for them, and judges disagreed with me, but that's kind of how I felt.

* Crown 2011 - I thought the towers were unnecessary, but they were far less obtrusive than other props (like Blue Stars stuff last year).

* Phantom 2008 - their use of "GE" is what I would call 'clown hands GE.' It's obvious and works on the most basic aesthetic/level, but I've stepped in deeper puddles. It appealed to the masses on just a basic level, and IMO paled in comparison to BD's use of props in 2009, 2010, and 2011 (and even Cadets last year, IMO).

I honestly think Blue Devils have most effectively used props over the last several years, though Cadets were kinda cool last year: at least they found a gimmick that worked for them. Most designer use props in a fairly basic way: it's like they figure out one or two cool ideas, but then are stuck with the props for a 13 minute show. BD more than everyone else has continually figured out a way to integrate the props into their show without the props being obtrusive, or cluttering the field.

Now, that doesn't mean I actually was a big fan of those BD shows (I really didn't like their show last year, and I wasn't a huge fan of the 1930 show either). But I do understand what their design intent was, and appreciate how well they designed/performed those programs

(conversely, the 'ketchup & mustard' Cadets thing annoyed me on a basic level of "they're utilizing a gimmick that TOTALLY hinders their visual design and works on such a basic level it almost drives me nuts that it worked; yet I REALLY liked their show last year)

[Jeff Ream]

This is flat out wrong. Love 'em, or hate 'em, Blue Devils' prop use over the last few years have been EXTREMELY effective. The mirrors especially were off the hook effective for that show, I think the house stuff last year was effective, and even the chairs added cool effect to their visual design.

I know that too many people like to substitute stuff like, "in my opinion..." or "ineffective design" or "bad design" with what they really mean, which is "I don't like it" or "I don't understand it." Heck, I catch myself doing it as well. It's human mentality to feel like we have to justify our opinions with definitive, broad statements about poor quality.

For example, I was not a huge fan of Madison Scouts show last year. It is very easy, and a little bit lazy, for me to substitute, "I don't really like the direction/design of their show" with "their show has cheap, pandering GE that has no effect or technical merit." (note, I don't necessarily believe that, I'm more interested in illustrating my point).

You saying that Blue Devils' use of props the last few years were "visually ineffective" literally means you either A) want to appear intellectually superior or "right" instead of being honest and saying you didn't like their show or their props, or B) you are seriously naive or ignorant about either what is effect, or naive/ignorant about the meaning and symbolism in Blue Devils' visual design.

the mirrors I can agree with. the chairs not so much.

the house...well once it came together, yeah, but earlier in the show it did mke it look cluttered

[kickhaltsforlife]

The BD props have been ineffective IMO. Especially last year... all they did was distract and clutter up the field and were a distraction to the very ineffective drill design. The end result of the props at the end was cool with the house. However, I saw no purpose for the props for the rest of the show. They were just in the way. 2008, however I thought was a great use of the props, probably some of the best use of props I've seen by a corps. 2009... It would have been more effective for them to march some drill whenever they utilized the chairs. But BD march drill??? 2010... I guess it was good use of the props. I mean depending on where you were viewing the show, the show was different every time... but I really didn't like that entire show... at all... Meh, it's no secret I'm not a fan at all of BDs design choices of recent.

I am personally not a fan of props... but if used properly they can be effective... the only problem is your usually stuck with something on the field the entire show. Like the Blue Stars atrocity last year..

As much as it's made fun of, the Door in 2005 Cadets was utilized extrememly well. Even though it was front and center, the whole show centered around that prop. And it honestly wasn't distracting when it wasn't in use because the drill happening around it was extrememly effective.

I'm trying to think of other effective prop usage... but I personally just prefer shows that don't need the help of props to get their points across.

[MikeD]

I'm trying to think of other effective prop usage... but I personally just prefer shows that don't need the help of props to get their points across.

Not to pick on Jason...just commenting on the general use of the word 'need' versus what I consider the more appropriate 'want' here on DCP. Very little is a 'need' when discussing elements like props as is being done in this thread. What the BD staff have decided these past years is that they had a show concept to convey and they 'wanted' to use the props they used to convey that concept. Could they have done something similar in another way? Sure, if that had been what they 'wanted' to do. They 'need' to have brass, percussion and guard performing on the field. Most everything else is them doing what they 'want' to do.

[Plan9]

The BD props have been ineffective IMO. Especially last year... all they did was distract and clutter up the field and were a distraction to the very ineffective drill design. The end result of the props at the end was cool with the house. However, I saw no purpose for the props for the rest of the show. They were just in the way. 2008, however I thought was a great use of the props, probably some of the best use of props I've seen by a corps. 2009... It would have been more effective for them to march some drill whenever they utilized the chairs. But BD march drill??? 2010... I guess it was good use of the props. I mean depending on where you were viewing the show, the show was different every time... but I really didn't like that entire show... at all... Meh, it's no secret I'm not a fan at all of BDs design choices of recent.

I am personally not a fan of props... but if used properly they can be effective... the only problem is your usually stuck with something on the field the entire show. Like the Blue Stars atrocity last year..

As much as it's made fun of, the Door in 2005 Cadets was utilized extrememly well. Even though it was front and center, the whole show centered around that prop. And it honestly wasn't distracting when it wasn't in use because the drill happening around it was extrememly effective.

I'm trying to think of other effective prop usage... but I personally just prefer shows that don't need the help of props to get their points across.

I think if you go back and look at the integration of the chairs in BD 2009 you will see some very striking drill (both horizontal and vertical) in and around the chairs, which don't get out of the way when your trajectory is a bit askew ...props are utterly unforgiving and when you litter the field with them..you must be spot on with your drill. A little known anticdote about BD 09 is that when they had sick MM's (many corps did that year) the chairs were still required on the field and carry/placement assignments were an ongoing nightmare, that often changed daily. There are some great stories about last minute changes that were done on the fly in the tunnel and out of the corner of the eye grabs which looked like part of the show.

[cowtown]

I thought the mirrors from BD 2010 were very ineffective, the relied on the viewer be close to the field, almost level with the corps to get the effect in the mirrors. A few rows up, they might as well have been blank walls. Also they had the corps’ back to the audience a lot which was not the intended effect but the consequence - I felt that show was made for the DVD and not the attending audience

Generally my impression of BD use of props the last few years has been that they are field marks to facilitate their high speed running drill, the props became giant dots (field markers) to run to in a specific count or to run from and yes, they still mark of the hashes too. They look to be extra points of reference on the field, there is a snare cam run through which makes this use of props apparent as you really notice how they mark and line up off the props for their sets. Smart programming but gone to the well too many times.

I’ve heard they are not using props this years and will be interested in see their running drill which, they’ve have several years to prefect so I doubt they’ll need the props to execute

otherwise, I thought the chairs 2009 cluttered the field and should have been gone after the opener

2008 - fit the theme, real mess on some runs, on the DVD you see them kicking them into place,re-setting them

2011 - were OK, a cool effect of spinning and building a circle around one and another effect of floating a marked form to it - the end pay off was a bit of a let down, and the sitting on them like a curb, yawn...the music was good enough that I didn't mind just didn't see it as a positive

[GUARDLING]

I thought the mirrors from BD 2010 were very ineffective, the relied on the viewer be close to the field, almost level with the corps to get the effect in the mirrors. A few rows up, they might as well have been blank walls. Also they had the corps’ back to the audience a lot which was not the intended effect but the consequence - I felt that show was made for the DVD and not the attending audience

Generally my impression of BD use of props the last few years has been that they are field marks to facilitate their high speed running drill, the props became giant dots (field markers) to run to in a specific count or to run from and yes, they still mark of the hashes too. They look to be extra points of reference on the field, there is a snare cam run through which makes this use of props apparent as you really notice how they mark and line up off the props for their sets. Smart programming but gone to the well too many times.

I’ve heard they are not using props this years and will be interested in see their running drill which, they’ve have several years to prefect so I doubt they’ll need the props to execute

otherwise, I thought the chairs 2009 cluttered the field and should have been gone after the opener

2008 - fit the theme, real mess on some runs, on the DVD you see them kicking them into place,re-setting them

2011 - were OK, a cool effect of spinning and building a circle around one and another effect of floating a marked form to it - the end pay off was a bit of a let down, and the sitting on them like a curb, yawn...the music was good enough that I didn't mind just didn't see it as a positive

why is it a problem if props are used as a reference point on the field? dont we use yard marks, hash marks, other members, etc etc

Also people are acting like props are something new , they have been used for decades. I remember the HUGEEEEEEEEE props cadets used in their western show in the 90s sometime MY GOD they were massive. IMO props can be used very effectively and if not written into the show well can be of no purpose BUT thats a corps decision. As I said before if a plain ole drum corps show can be enhanced more with the use of props so be it....GEZZZ I remember the days when more color was added to a show other than corps colors and dancing, and a pit, and a theme..always those who object and say the same thing ITS NOT NEEDED....May not be needed BUT sure does made it more visual and diversity in our activity is a good thing. JMO

[Plan9]

As always in all things DCP, opinions split along generational lines. Those with a frame of reference built on years of memories find props distracting or worse. Youth (IMO) recieve the shows as presented with no burden or reflection of the past. They view it purely as a visual package and if it works, it works. No preconceived judgement. The circus was changed for the new generations by Cirque and what they do is normal and even expected now. Props for Cirque are just platforms and tools to set the stage, they are part of the show. But someone coming to see lions, tigers and the things they remember of the circus may be left flat. I think it's just that simple. Can they be misused in DCI...of course, but they are not out of place in a presentation that requires them.

[GUARDLING]

As always in all things DCP, opinions split along generational lines. Those with a frame of reference built on years of memories find props distracting or worse. Youth (IMO) recieve the shows as presented with no burden or reflection of the past. They view it purely as a visual package and if it works, it works. No preconceived judgement. The circus was changed for the new generations by Cirque and what they do is normal and even expected now. Props for Cirque are just platforms and tools to set the stage, they are part of the show. But someone coming to see lions, tigers and the things they remember of the circus may be left flat. I think it's just that simple. Can they be misused in DCI...of course, but they are not out of place in a presentation that requires them.

I think its more of WHO DECIDES to be current or not Im from BITD But maybe its because although I marched in the stone age I teach in WC today . I do see your point though. For me there were so many great , exciting things BITD but there is just as many or more now. One just has to embrace change , which is not a bad thing. I went to a seminar recently and the lecture in part was about EMBRACING CHANGE and how those who dont like change use the excuse of " why change for the sake of change " now not that all who lecture are right BUT it was interesting when they said , " Look at change as a way to continously re-invent ones self " I knda liked that> JMO

[kickhaltsforlife]

I know I may not be in the majority, but there are plenty of young people my age who do not care for the use of props. In all my experience props are just one big inconvenience that takes focus away from the actual performance. I'm speaking as someone who has marched shows with props and also as an audience member. Hell props can even become a very dangerous obstacle on the field, especially in certain weather, or if they are misplaced, or the marcher takes a slightly different path.

They are more trouble than they are worth, IMO, and in my experience.

And there are only a handful of shows I actually found that they added to the overall product.

I'm sure props are no problem for BD, since they are an extrememly efficient organization. But I personally have not had a good experience myself with props, and as a spectator have found them mostly ineffective.