Martin I. Zing Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 INSTANT REPLAY was added to try to prove and/or correct calls that had an effect on sports where BETTING was at play, primarily horse racing and football. These involve decisions that are primarily objective and there is lots of money in play. Other sports namely basketball and baseball involve a great deal of objective and subjective calls. The worst one being basketball where a foul or traveling could be called on virtually every play but it is not because it would bring the pace of the game to a grinding halt. Anyone who bets on basketball is a fool because they are not actually betting on a winner or a loser, they are betting on being able to outsmart the system. If you choose to gamble on the NBA, you have my sympathy. Baseball, a little less so. How any of this might apply to drum corps I couldn't hazard a guess. I've always assumed the scores were neither subjective or objective but were predetermined and therefore, FIXED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 They used to put the judges tapes on the DVDs, how would it be any different if they did it now? It's not like the judges travel around in these little plastic bubbles, they are people too. They should be able to justify their opinions just as much as all of us posting stuff on here. Do you not agree that it would quell some of the discontent we see on here if people could actually hear and find out the reasoning behind the judge's decisions? I didn't like it the either. Yes, the judges are people too. They should be accountable. And they are. Just not to the public. And no, I don't think it would do anything to quell any discontent, because I think the people who are capable of being reasonable, already are. We're sitting here having a rational conversation about it all. The people who are up in arms about the "problems with dci judging", are not going to be swayed by any explanation. They dont actually want to know why the numbers are what they are. They've decided that the corps they thought should have won was wronged, and no amount of explanation will quell that notion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) I've always assumed the scores were neither subjective or objective but were predetermined and therefore, FIXED. Careful with your accusations here sir; by claiming that DCI scores are fixed you are calling a DCI Judge (one who is an Officer at the West Point Military Academy) a Lair, a Cheat, and a person who has no Integrity. I will tell you right now that I will defend that person here and anywhere else you want to blast his character. Edited August 5, 2012 by Stu 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin I. Zing Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Careful with your accusations here sir; by claiming that DCI scores are fixed you are calling a DCI Judge (one who is an Officer at the West Point Military Academy) a Lair, a Cheat, and a person who has no Integrity. I will tell you right now that I will defend that person here and anywhere else you want to blast his character. So you admit he knows how to take an order? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 So you admit he knows how to take an order? No; I am admitting that you do not know what the **** you are talking about; and your attempts to tarnish the reputation of a very honest person are rather foolish. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedawn Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Careful with your accusations here sir; by claiming that DCI scores are fixed you are calling a DCI Judge (one who is an Officer at the West Point Military Academy) a Lair, a Cheat, and a person who has no Integrity. I will tell you right now that I will defend that person here and anywhere else you want to blast his character. Now I remember why Stu is one of my favorite posters. I'd say that judges have a rough idea of what they are going to do at a show before the show happens. One example I can remember is 1998 finals, in Visual Performance. After 11 corps, the judge had BD in first with 9.9 and SCV in second with a 9.7. The score of 9.8 was ostensibly "saved" for the Cadets. The Cadets then "outperformed" their slot, and forced the judge to give them 10.0, which he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnitzel Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I didn't like it the either. Yes, the judges are people too. They should be accountable. And they are. Just not to the public. And no, I don't think it would do anything to quell any discontent, because I think the people who are capable of being reasonable, already are. We're sitting here having a rational conversation about it all. The people who are up in arms about the "problems with dci judging", are not going to be swayed by any explanation. They dont actually want to know why the numbers are what they are. They've decided that the corps they thought should have won was wronged, and no amount of explanation will quell that notion. You might also consider that as DCI is a "loose confederation" of non-profit educational organizations, the recorded communications between adjudicators and teaching/design staff are protected by by both copyright and educational disclosure statutes. The evaluation and subsequent dialogue is legally confidential. In short, the performers are amateurs (mostly minors) that pay for the privilege of the instruction and assessments, and the adjudicators are sub-contracted hobbyists. Not very glamorous by NFL/NBA/MLB/MLS standards, but more related to posting your kid's school evaluations on the local TV news, than instant replay. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyGranite Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Careful with your accusations here sir; by claiming that DCI scores are fixed you are calling a DCI Judge (one who is an Officer at the West Point Military Academy) a Lair, a Cheat, and a person who has no Integrity. I will tell you right now that I will defend that person here and anywhere else you want to blast his character. Would you defend that person against a charge of "score management"? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyGranite Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 And that's where the big issue here is. Many people in the drum corps community think that the judges have any responsibility to the fans. They don't. Olympic judges don't have to answer to the ticket holders when assigning their scores. Major league baseball umpires don't answer to the public. Sure, the public will criticize, and complain, but at the end of the day, those people only answer to the higher ups in their sport/activity. The reason behind this is that the public is largely less educated regarding the inner workings of said sport or activity, and often unable to maintain any objectivity. Any discourse with the public regarding those scores would be unproductive at best. On the other hand, it's been stated many times in this thread that the judges cannot be objective, either. What's the difference? Opinion? Let the judges justify their opinions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) Now I remember why Stu is one of my favorite posters. I'd say that judges have a rough idea of what they are going to do at a show before the show happens. One example I can remember is 1998 finals, in Visual Performance. After 11 corps, the judge had BD in first with 9.9 and SCV in second with a 9.7. The score of 9.8 was ostensibly "saved" for the Cadets. The Cadets then "outperformed" their slot, and forced the judge to give them 10.0, which he did. Of course the judges have a rough idea; such as they pretty much know that historically the BD drumline will out perform Pioneer unless BD folds all over their drums throughout an entire performance. But that is far from 'predetermining outcomes' and especially the horrible term of "fixing"; both of which are very harsh accusations and can cause civil lawsuits (or criminal in the case of the "fixing" of fights or Olympic Ice Skating). And even your example here shows that there are no 'predetermined outcomes' or 'fixing' of scores in DCI; it just shows poor score management which occurs in all subjective judging systems. Edited August 5, 2012 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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