Stu Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 (edited) I think the corps that should win is the corps that puts on the best performance, as that performance is perceived by a judge sitting about half-way up the stands on the fifty yard line ... not the corps that sounds the best to a judge standing right in front of a group of players on the field that are there because the show was designed to show off those players to the judges. How would that change the subjectivity of observation and variation of perception from judge to judge? Also, please define, in (objective terms), what is "best performance". Edited August 4, 2012 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 It's interesting that we all clamor for better and more consistent judging, yet we freak out when scores and ordinals are all over the place. I think the idea of "consistency" has a different meaning for many people and causes too much confusion and frustration among fans today. Personally, I miss the old days of 3 seasons (June-July-August), where corps like Spirit and Sky Ryders would beat Cadets early season by being much cleaner, yet get caught by the better show in august. We just don't see that as much anymore and whenever we see big changes in numbers or placements, (especially with our own biases towards certain groups), we complain to no end of cheating and "slotting". I still think that some of the lower tier teams don't get enough credit early season for coming out on clean and think the judging should more wide open and not "uniform based" at the beginning of each season. Judges are human, but it takes a lot more "intestinal fortitude" to make calls like that in this generation than it did 20 years ago. So, what say you and how would you like to see things judged differently? Ok, in the days of old, when did something become a 'tick'? What was the margin of error, and how was it consistently applied? Please structure your answers so that they reflect 'objective observation'. Point is that judging in this activity has 'always' been subjective; by its very nature it cannot be objective no matter how the system is adjusted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 In a subjective judging system bias and inconsistency can never be eliminated but they can be minimized. I am 'not' saying the following should be done, but here is an example as to how this minimization can be accomplished: At all shows have 7 captions judged with equal 20 points per caption; then when the score is tallied drop the highest and lowest scores which will yield the 5 middle scores based on a possible 100 points total. This does not eliminate bias and inconsistency, but it does minimize the impact of them. As for Caption awards; since there are 3 shows during Champs week, the same elimination of the highest and lowest score per caption per corps for those 3 shows can also be done. Again, I am not advocating this system, but it is just an example as to how bias and inconsistency can be minimized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicfan779 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 There can never be a score related to fans. If that were to happen some people wouldnt even applaud for shows and would go ape #### for others (saw it live with people sitting behind me at a show). Some corps have a bigger fan base than others (Crown vs Pioneer). Geographical location would also change results on fans (home show corps get more love). You have people that will never like something a corps does and you have people that dont want certain groups to win..... Agree, agree! I believe MotorCityMusician's comment is not only what would happen but what does happen every week. I'm fairly new to drum corps and find value in all corps contributions but there are certain drill and music nuances that drive the crowd to their feet. While watching the show in Minneapolis, my friend and I started a friendly bet about block formations and company fronts. By the time we witnessed the 9th company front, we were rolling on the floor.... If you want to 'win' the crowd, throw in a company front - which by the way do look and sound very cool. All that to say, bias is and will always be built into any competitive experience. Want a standing O???? Company front baby 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I agree that "crowd reaction" can never be a part of the formula. It would be a disaster. BUT, maybe they could somehow add "accessability"...how easy it is for the "average fan" to "get it". This would likely lead to less complex shows that first time viewers could enjoy. Then again, I'm not sure "less complex" is a good thing either. Variety is the key. I think things are fine when the shows are very different. I would hate to go to a show and see eight shows that all look and sound the same. Even if I don't like some of them, I want them to be unique. It is clear that many do not like the direction the Blue Devils have taken recently, but it is all experimentation. I don't expect twenty copycats in the next few years. I DO expect several corps (including the Blue Devils) to take the best of the ideas and use them in future designs. Everything evolves. Everything moves forward or dies. All very good points. I would like the fans considered but I have no clear idea how that would be achieved. Sure I love Malaguenea but after the 8th or 9th rendition in a night it might get a little old, even for me. The thing is though, a lot of the shows DO look the same in the elements that are written into them. It's starting to look like design by ticking the boxes. electronic patch - check dancing horn players - check body during snare feature - check No as formulaic as the '60s, but to some extent the sheets will always push design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcjordansc Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I have read a lot of posts this year expressing dissatisfaction with the judging, but, serious question, name a corps that is consistently not finishing in the place they deserve? I look at the scores from the major events this summer when all corps are together and I do not see any obvious mistakes made by the judges. And we all know that the only scores that matter are when all corps are together being scored by the same group of judges. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 (edited) Make all the Guard performers have to play a percussive instrument or a brass instument at some point in the show. This will make up for the scoring that the Brass and Percussion performers are under for not playing their instruments but instead are doing dance routines or exercise routines on the ground and are being judged on these elements. Absent this, each Guard performer is more important to a Corps on the current judging sheets than a single brass performer. Thats because we have 80 brass in these Corps, but less than half that in Guard. BD will win DCI this year, because they have a phenomenal Guard. Crown has a phenomenal brass line. So what. They always do. We can't blame the winning DCI Corps for figuring out how the judging sheets are constructed scoring wise. Corps that win DCI do it primarily through the Visual and Guard, notthe Brass and Percussion. The Cadets won DCI last year because their drill and visual show was better than the others. Phantom won in 2008 by making a late season VISUAL change ( with the DM ). BD has figured out the VISUAL gig, and knows that if you've got a world class Guard, you are going to be right there at Finals. Some people that are still looking at the scoring through a MUSIC prism and are frustrated with the scores and placements, need to ask themselves 1) how is the Guard ? and B) how is the Visual program ? The DCI scoring sheets have " evolved " into a VISUAL oriented scoring system over a MUSICAL oriented scoring system. And the influence of WGI ( even in the newer judges coming into DCI) is unmistakable, imo. Until we bring the judging sheets more in line with the Music, Corps that have a phenomenal Guard and Visual show will continue to score higher over those that do not. Edited August 4, 2012 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicfan779 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Make all the Guard performers have to play a percussive instrument or a brass instument at some point in the show. This will make up for the scoring that the Brass and Percussion performers are under for not playing their instruments but instead are doing dance routines or exercise routines on the ground and are being judged on these elements. Absent this, each Guard performer is more important to a Corps on the current judging sheets than a single brass performer. Thats because we have 80 brass in these Corps, but less than half that in Guard. BD will win DCI this year, because they have a phenomenal Guard. Crown has a phenomenal brass line. So what. They always do. We can't blame the winning DCI Corps for figuring out how the judging sheets are constructed scoring wise. Corps that win DCI do it primarily through the Visual and Guard, notthe Brass and Percussion. The Cadets won DCI last year because their drill and visual show was better than the others. Phantom won in 2008 by making a late season VISUAL change ( with the DM ). BD has figured out the VISUAL gig, and knows that if you've got a world class Guard, you are going to be right there at Finals. Some people that are still looking at the scoring through a MUSIC prism and are frustrated with the scores and placements, need to ask themselves 1) how is the Guard ? and B) how is the Visual program ? The DCI scoring sheets have " evolved " into a VISUAL oriented scoring system over a MUSICAL oriented scoring system. And the influence of WGI ( even in the newer judges coming into DCI) is unmistakable, imo. Until we bring the judging sheets more in line with the Music, Corps that have a phenomenal Guard and Visual show will continue to score higher over those that do not. When I allow my head to clear of all my profound sensibilities and those of others as well, you brasso have just made the most sense of anyone on this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 (edited) Make all the Guard performers have to play a percussive instrument or a brass instument at some point in the show. This will make up for the scoring that the Brass and Percussion performers are under for not playing their instruments but instead are doing dance routines or exercise routines on the ground and are being judged on these elements. Absent this, each Guard performer is more important to a Corps on the current judging sheets than a single brass performer. Thats because we have 80 brass in these Corps, but less than half that in Guard. BD will win DCI this year, because they have a phenomenal Guard. Crown has a phenomenal brass line. So what. They always do. We can't blame the winning DCI Corps for figuring out how the judging sheets are constructed scoring wise. Corps that win DCI do it primarily through the Visual and Guard, notthe Brass and Percussion. The Cadets won DCI last year because their drill and visual show was better than the others. Phantom won in 2008 by making a late season VISUAL change ( with the DM ). BD has figured out the VISUAL gig, and knows that if you've got a world class Guard, you are going to be right there at Finals. Some people that are still looking at the scoring through a MUSIC prism and are frustrated with the scores and placements, need to ask themselves 1) how is the Guard ? and B) how is the Visual program ? The DCI scoring sheets have " evolved " into a VISUAL oriented scoring system over a MUSICAL oriented scoring system. And the influence of WGI ( even in the newer judges coming into DCI) is unmistakable, imo. Until we bring the judging sheets more in line with the Music, Corps that have a phenomenal Guard and Visual show will continue to score higher over those that do not. I think your post has some merit, but it seems to completely disregard the rest of what BD is doing. I'm not a BD fan by any stretch of the imagination, but to say that their guard alone is winning shows for them is simply refusing to pay attention to what else is going on on the field. Yes, there are visual aspects to their show that they are doing better than everyone else, but this activity is a visual activity too. If they are putting out comparable quality music, and are a little better visually, shouldn't they be winning? All of that being said, yes, Crown has the better brass line. But BD's brass is no slouch either. There's a whole section of their show where the brass line starts mid field at a full sound, and then proceeds to back up all the way to the back sideline, and then spread out from the 20 to the 20, all while getting louder and maintaining rhythmic and tonal integrity. That's just one moment that is pretty amazing. Then there's the fact that their percussion section is fantastic, both front and battery. The music on the field, while not to many's liking, if being performed at a world class level, no different from that of Crown. The same could be said for Cadets last year. I'd remind you that Cadets won ensemble music, and music effect, while taking second in brass and third in percussion. Its not like they marched fantastic drill and played terribly, and managed to win a championship. The fact is, you don't win a championship in DCI without being able to play the crap out of your music. There are more elements to the sheets than just the music, as there should be. If its on the field, it should be judged. This is a visual activity too, and while the visual game has changed over the years, it always has been a factor. There is an argument to be made that music should hold a larger weight on the sheets, but to say that visual/guard alone can win a championship is simply ridiculous. As to the "entertainment" argument, I'd argue that what is entertaining to one person is not to another. Look at the arguments people have over movies. Edited August 4, 2012 by actucker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyGranite Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I would never presume to express an opinion on how judging should be conducted, but last night I saw someone use a term that disturbed me: "score management". Now, I understand why score management might be used...especially in the case of Allentown with it's split shows. But is that really fair? Why can't the judges just score the corps' performance...at that particular time...honestly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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