Dear Dinosaurs

[BRASSO]

NO activity stays the same over time....ever.

I think we all agree on this... and this point has not been in much dispute on this thread either. So once again, we should be able to set this point aside as it has been mentioned repetitively on here ( exactly why however, I'm not quite sure ) despite what appears to be universal agreement on here that " no activity stays the same over time ".

Edited August 28, 2012 by BRASSO

[audiodb]

This notion being floated here that drum corps has undergone a fundamental change during the DCI era while the world around it seemingly stood still is silly.

The sports examples aren’t valid because sports have changed along with the society around them too. Everything from free agency in baseball to primacy of the pass in football is indicative of quantum change in sport in tandem with the world around.

Dismiss the DH if you like. Dismiss the increased reliance on relief pitching or the expanded MLB playoff formats if you wish. But don’t miss this reality: Baseball has managed to hold onto many traditional elements while its share of the U.S. sports market eroded around it. The NFL has long-since passed MLB as owner of the national pastime. The NFL has become by far the most popular U.S. sport in no small part by legislating more offense for the game, particularly through passing. The NFL of the 60s hardly resembles the NFL today.

MLB has also lost share to the NBA, which in turn transformed its game during the DCI era with an emphasis on offense. The shot clock is just one rule aimed at making the game faster and more attractive to fans who aren’t necessarily students of the game. A whole host of other rules (or their interpretation) has helped create a league of stars where once there was merely league of teams.

In the recent Olympics, we saw the impact of liberalized rules to allow competition by professionals who once were banned. This wasn’t done for the purity of the sport. This was done to market in modern times.

Even in soccer, where the game itself stays mostly the same, the changes have been profound. The success of the English Premier League isn’t a grassroots accomplishment. No, the Premier League like all the top leagues is a testament to the internationalization of the sport. Transient stars drift in and out, making the world’s game more homogenous and less regional.

s - t - r - e - t - c - h - i - n - g . . . .

[BRASSO]

Fencing....Since 1962, more changes than I can shake a stick at...especially in the last TEN years...and not always for the better, IMO as a competitor, vendor, and armorer. We're talking timing changes that completely changed how foil is fenced...the introduction of electric sabre, which DID remove all the cheating, but THAT game has changed a HELL of a lot...new rules that have come about in an attempt to get more TV coverage, but which have introduced their own problems.

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Is it possible then that these radical changes that have made you concerned have likewise contributed to the atrophy in the growth and popularity of the sport ? Just asking mind you. It seems that sports that did not embrace as many changes as fencing have retained their base of fans, and in the process, unlike fencing, have grown the number of fans since 1962... and at far higher levels than the sport of fencing has too. Is this accurate... or not ? Neither Drum Corps, nor the sport of fencing, are any longer on live TV. What lessons.. if any... can this lack of growth and the loss of increased national exposure teach us ?

Edited August 28, 2012 by BRASSO

[84BDsop]

Is it possible then that these radical changes that have made you concerned have likewise contributed to the atrophy in the growth and popularity of the sport ? Just asking mind you. It seems that sports that did not embrace as many changes as fencing have retained their base of fans, and in the process, unlike fencing, have grown the number of fans since 1962... and at far higher levels than the sport of fencing has too. Is this accurate... or not ? Neither Drum Corps, nor the sport of fencing, are any longer on live TV. What lessons.. if any... can this lack of growth and the loss of increased national exposure teach us ?

Actually, the sport has not atrophied at all...membership numbers in the US Fencing Association have been steadily rising for years, regardless of the rule changes. Some people have changed the WEAPON they fence, but the over all numbers have grown. I worked the armory at our national championships in Anaheim in July...we needed 61 competitive strips out for a total of over 7000 entrants over a 2 week period. Granted that a lot of those entrants were people doing multiple events (one of my middle school students was in FIVE...I only did one, myself). Each strip is 2 meters wide by 18 meters long....you can guess how large a space we needed even without factoring in space for directors and people to just move about...it was huge.

20 years ago, this was not the case...at this time, events that only used to take 2 days now require a 3rd....that's growth in the activity, by any measure.

Fencing was never on live TV until the Athens Olympics, and even then, only a few bouts that the American's were close to medalling in. Go forward 8 years and I was able to watch EVERY bout in every weapon in both genders...both individual and team competition. We kinda OD'ed in the community!!

However, the growth in the fencing community is in SPITE of all the rules changes...not because of it. No one's said "WOO HOO! They changed the timing in foil so the flick is harder to land...I SO want to fence now!" People have just said "Fencing looks cool...I'll give it a try" and either get hooked or not.

[glory]

Since you brought up "Broadway" as an example, lets look at this closely then. The top Broadway hits are still many of the classics in NYC. According to Broadway. com, in the top 10 grossing Broadway hits in NYC for 2011 were Chicago, Lion King, Mary Poppins, Memphis, Jersey Boys, Phantom of the Opera, Mamma Mia, and How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. 9 of the 10 top grossers in revenues for 2011 essentially were redos of the classics. Even Spiderman at #2 for 2011, is a knock off in some respects of the classic Superman classic... just as you stated here. You make my point. Audiences do respond to the familiar, the traditional. And the show designers on Broadway know this and as a result produce Broadway theatre shows that audiences want. Not what THEY might want. "Change" isn't big on Broadway at all. Tradition is. And most of the time frames depicted in the shows are from the earlier past, not the present or the look at the future at all. Just look at the top 10 Broadway hits in NYC for 2011 as the most recent completed year as evidence for this.

All due respect, but you're not even close. When Phantom eclipsed Chorus Line as the longest-running Broadway show, that represented a shift from the more traditional production to a more modern vision of the Broadway stage. Chorus Line relied on singing and dancing for its art. Phantom relied on singing and dancing to be sure but overlaid those attributes with technological effects that weren't part of the repetoire of the Broadway before. Lion King represented a further shift toward effect (though not necessarily technological) as central to the art. Spiderman is one step further still.

It doesn't matter that Guys and Dolls had a great run in between any more than it matters that Madison spins a company front now and again. The fact is that the Broadway artform has evolved well past the standard of the 60s and 70s. It's biggest, longest-running hits (Phantom and Lion King are the top two) aren't just singing and dancing vehicles anymore. (And they all have put mics on their performers.)

Broadway is more Hollywood than ever in its reliance on technology and effect as part of the program. To say otherwise is to ignore the obvious.

This trend mirrors the trend in drum corps. Broadway and drum corps have leveraged new technology and new perspectives on artistry to create new standards. Ballet too. And for that matter, so did the NFL. Maybe not artistry or technology (though there is some of that), but new notions of offensive play have transformed the game to the extent that today's team are almost incomparable to the teams from the 70s and before in everyting from size to speed to ability.

There's one more way Broadway is mirroring drum corps. It's shrinking. There are fewer shows just as there are fewer corps, fewer symphonies and fewer ballets.

HH

[Michael Boo]

Fencing....Since 1962, more changes than I can shake a stick at...especially in the last TEN years...and not always for the better...

Really. I'm still not sold on this, despite the maintenance claims.

[BRASSO]

All due respect, but you're not even close.

HH

I can't help it if you ignore the fact that 8 of the top 10 grossing Broadway theatre productions for the most current year ( 2011 ) according to Broadway.com, were in fact Broadway redos that by all measure were not brand new themes, and Avant- Garde productions, but were in in fact traditional show themes used for years and years, and over and over again. I listed the tradition based Broadway shows that audiences in NYC swarmed to in 2011, and you decided to ignore that and focus on the changes in the sets, lighting, technology useage, and so forth that is not germane at all as to what audiences tend to like re." Broadway"...a topic you wanted to bring up above, as to supportive of " change" when the reality is that NYC Broadway is a highly tradition based theatre enclave. Its been quite successful for almost a century and a money maker for those Broadway show designers that have continued to produce shows the public wants and will financially support with their attendance. The 2011 TOP 10 on Broadway were huge money makers for their producers and they cranked out record crowds. Most of the 2011 Broadway Avant- Garde theatre offerings in NYC in competition with the traditional based Broadway shows failed to supplant them. These are just the irrefutable facts. In retrospect perhaps you should not have brought up " Broadway " as an example to try and bolster you position that " Broadway " represents " change ", and "has undergone massive changes over the years." Sure, the physical things, technology, and so forth has changed on Broadway, but the central important point here of what drives audiences through the turnstyle on Broadway is the tried, the true, and the familiar... not the Avant-Garde. Its primarily the Tradition based shows and themes just about everyone has heard of before. These are just the facts and backed up with the enclosed data source listed here in the first sentence.

Edited August 28, 2012 by BRASSO

[BRASSO]

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There's one more way Broadway is mirroring drum corps. It's shrinking.

HH

Not according to industry reports. ( High Beam Inc.. Industry trade group.. data 2010-2011 ):

( quote ) "In the early post 9/11 attacks, Broadway attendance and revenues declined. However, it has rebounded briskly each year. Despite the sluggish economy and the highest average ticket price on record ($90.00), the 2010-2012 year saw the largest ticket sales in Broadway's history ( 12.53 million tickets sold ) and the largest revenues generated in Broadway's history ( 1.08 billion dollars ). Also, Broadway introduced the most new productions on Broadway in a decade at 24 new productions introduced for year 2010-2011 ".

Edited August 28, 2012 by BRASSO

[KeithHall]

And we get sucked into these stupid posts! Some will defend the OP and the rest of us are wrong. We continue to speak our mind while the few "KNOW IT ALLS" tell us why they are soooo smart and should be running drum corps. We will never be right so let the few get on their soapbox and pontificate why they can make drum corps better. I bow to your knowledge, lead on o great ones!

[JimF-LowBari]

And we get sucked into these stupid posts! Some will defend the OP and the rest of us are wrong. We continue to speak our mind while the few "KNOW IT ALLS" tell us why they are soooo smart and should be running drum corps. We will never be right so let the few get on their soapbox and pontificate why they can make drum corps better. I bow to your knowledge, lead on o great ones!

Bingo.... With any change (or non-change) there is always going to be a wide range of opinions of pro or con. Way I see the it the truely closed minded are the ones who insult those with an opposing view, no matter what the view is. And yes I take the title of the thread and tone of "deal with it" as insulting as it doesn't invite discussion.

Irony is there were plenty of changes during my dark ages of the 70s. To act like people from that era never dealt with change is not correct.

Edited August 28, 2012 by JimF-LowBari