For Dinosaurs Only

[actucker]

actually I think BD should have won....but not GE.Hate to ruin that assumption you made.

actually the horses, IMO were distracting. so was the uniform changes.So was the narration.

That's great. Doesn't change the fact that those are the things that people talk about in regards to the aesthetic of that show. That would be aesthetic effect, and there was a ton of it. It seems that it was not an effect that you liked, but that doesn't change the fact that it was effective.

The point is, there's a difference between disliking a show, and dismissing the reasons why it garnered the numbers it did. BD's show was plenty effective, just not in a way that you seemed to like.

[audiodb]

Actually no. I don't have an opinion on whether one corps was better one night in several captions over another.

Really? Then who was posting under your account name a few weeks ago? They had no shortage of such opinions voiced in this same forum, even based on shows viewed via broadcast instead of in person. Hmmm....

I'm not qualified to make that call. I might be able to make that distinction in one caption. Not all of them.

For a percussion person, you (or whoever hacked your account) seem to have felt qualified to comment on brass and visual here in the past.

Geez, you even judge contests before they happen....

I didn't see the show tonight, but i saw the broadcast last nightt, and unless they did some pretty serious cleaning in 24 hours, their achievement of their program is nowhere near the level of that of BD, or even several other corps. That overwritten visual program has been their Achilles heel all season.

So spare me the "no opinion" act. We all have opinions....as we all should.

Hard to Crown's movement that significant when the corps that was in second for the first show was not present the next night. Who knows where Phantom would have fit in. That same perceived volatility exists every season, whether they can see the scores from the previous night or not. Even if I did think you had a point, 4 total shows isn't exactly a sample size that proves any kind of trend. You're talking about one somewhat unexpected move within those 4 shows. Not convincing at all.

There was more than one surprising move in these shows. In the 2011 example, not only did Crown go from first to fourth, but the Cadets overcame a 3-point loss to BD to beat them the very next night. Bluecoats lost to PR by a full point one night, then beat them by a full point the next night. And while SCV and Blue Stars stayed in place, Blue Stars gained 2.4 points on them.

Once the judges have access to last night's recaps, though, you just don't see that kind of movement between corps anymore.

Drum corps is built around the idea of consistency. Consistency of placement is not to be unexpected throughout the year.

Yes. I said that in my post.

The bottom line is, until a lower placing corps gets it together, we're going to continue to get "stagnant" placement.

You lost me there. Generally speaking, placement changes are equally likely from higher-placing corps losing their edge vs. lower corps moving up. Am I missing something?

I'm sorry that you can't deal with that, but blaming it on the judges is simply a cop out.

Continuing to mischaracterize what I say is the real cop-out.

[audiodb]

First off, performing at one DCI show hardly counts as being "involved" in DCI.

Do you think "nothing to do with DCI", is a more accurate characterization?

Anyway, I said these corps participated in DCI shows. Often, that meant traveling farther than for any other event on their schedule, including overnight stays or even a tour. I consider that to be "involved".

Please list the 'majority' that participated in DCI events. Personally, I don't think it was anywhere near that large a percentage.

Why bother? You've already indicated you will just dismiss them as not really "involved". Nevertheless, here goes. Let's take a year when you were involved....IIRC, you worked with King's Regiment in 1978, right?

Here's a list of 1978 corps that participated in DCI-sanctioned contests:

1st Canadian Regiment, ALB

27th Lancers, MA

2nd Décade, QUE

76ers, NY

Abénakis, QUE

Amvet Brigadiers, MA

Annunciators, MA

Arbella, MA

Argonne Rebels, KS

Avant Garde, NY

Barons of Steuben, NY

Bengal Lancers, CT

Beverly Crusaders, MA

Black Diamond Regiment, PA

Black Knights, IL

Black Watch Highlanders, WA

Black Watch, NJ

Bleu Raeders, LA

Blue Devils B, CA

Blue Devils, CA

Blue Knights, MN

Blue Stars, WI

Bluecoats, OH

Boston Crusaders, MA

Bridgemen, NJ

Buckeye State Caballeros, OH

Cambria Cadets, PA

CapitolAires, WI

Cardinals, ONT

Cascades, WA

Catholic Daughters of America, PA

Cavaliers, IL

Chancellors, NJ

Châtelaines, QUE

Citations, MA

Classics, CT

Coachmen, MI

Colonades, CT

Colts, IA

Companions, ONT

Conquistadors, CA

Continental Ambassadors, KS

Cranford Patriots, NJ

Crimson Buccaneers, NJ

Crimson Cadets, NE

Crossmen, PA

Defenders, MA

Drifters, BRC

Dutch Boy Cadets, ONT

Dynamic Royalaires, NJ

Emerald Grenadears, NJ

Emerald Knights, IA

Empire State Express, NY

Étoiles, QUE

Firemen, IL

Fitchburg Kingsmen, MA

Florida Vanguard, FL

Flying Dutchmen, IL

Freelancers, CA

Garfield Cadets, NJ

Gateway City Combine, MO

General Putnam's Men, OH

Golden Skyliners, MT

Greece Cadets, NY

Guardsmen, IL

Heightsmen, MA

Hudson Valley Indians, NY

Imperial Regiment, NY

Jean-ettes, MA

Joanettes, MA

Kiltie Kadets, WI

Kilts, WI

King's Regiment, NJ

Kingsmen, CA

Kiwanis Kavaliers, ONT

Knights, IL

La Salle Crusaders, IL

Lions of London, ONT

Long Island Kingsmen, NY

Madison Jr. Scouts, WI

Madison Scouts, WI

Magnum Force, MA

Malden Ambassadors, MA

Mandarins, CA

Marion Cadets, OH

Mavericks, PA

Medieval Barons, CA

Mello-Dears, NY

Métropolitains de Chicoutimi, QUE

Middlesex Guardsmen, MA

Midshipmen, MI

Mighty Liberators, NY

New York Lancers, NY

Niagara Frontiersmen, NY

North Star, MA

Northstars, ONT

Oakenshield, NJ

Oakland Crusaders, ONT

Odyssey, MA

Offensive Lions, QUE

Patriots, NY

Phantom Regiment Cadets, IL

Phantom Regiment, IL

Philadelphia P.A.L. Cadets, PA

Picadors, RI

Pioneers, WI

Queensmen, MA

Rancheros, QUE

Regal Crownsmen, RI

Renaissance, WA

Renegades, MA

Royal Brigade, NJ

Royal Crusaders, PA

Royales, NJ

Sacred Heart Crusaders, NJ

Saginaires, MI

Santa Clara Vanguard, CA

Seattle Imperials, WA

Seneca Optimists, ONT

Silver Sabres, KS

Simplex Minutemen, MA

Skokie Imperials, IL

Sky Ryders, KS

Socialites, MA

Spartans, WA

Spectra, MA

Spirit of Atlanta, GA

Squires, NY

St. Ignatius Girls, NY

St. John's Girls, ONT

St. Peter's Royalaires, CT

Stardusters, LA

Starisers, MA

Statesmen, IL

Thunderbolts, WI

Titans, WA

Troopers, WY

Troubadours, QUE

United Regiment, NJ

Vagabonds, PA

Valiant Knights, OK

Velvet Knights, CA

Ventures, ONT

Wausau Story, WI

Wranglers, WI

My records show 252 North American junior corps competing in 1978. There are 145 who were participating in DCI-sanctioned contests, a majority (58%). Obviously, that percentage has increased since then (now it's 100%).

As for wanting DCI rules, it wasn't because the local corps were participating in DCI, it was because even at that early stage DCI was seen as the top of the activity, so it was natural to want to adopt the rules used by the best.

That is not natural at all. Smaller, younger or less competitive versions of an activity often develop their own rules different from those of the "major league". Little League baseball allows aluminum bats, only plays six innings, and then there's tee ball. For the young, soccer is played with smaller teams on smaller fields with smaller goals and a smaller ball. The same was true in drum corps, where BITD, smaller/younger/less experienced corps often competed under different rules permitting shorter shows, shorter time-in-motion requirements, and modified scoring systems.

That's how it was in the GSC in the mid 70's, anyway. I was at the circuit meetings as an instructor and judge.

Really? Here's a post from someone who was there too....oh, wait, it's you:

For a while in the mid/late 70's, the Garden State Circuit instructors and directors tried to implement the idea of 'National Linear' for the judges...in other words...the raw beginner corps was to be judged to the same standards of performance as, say, the Blue Devils or Muchachos or 27th or...any other top national corps. The idea behind this was that if GSC Corps X went to the World Open prelims they should be receiving the same sort of score they did at a weekly GSC local show.

Well...after seeing a lot of VERY low scores at the start of the season, the corps admins decided to quietly abandon that concept, and scores went back to where they were in prior years.

Apparently, even your own local circuit had naturally developed their own scoring system. But once their corps started getting involved in DCI-sanctioned contests, then they wanted to change the local scoring system to match DCI.

I was at GSC circuit meetings in the 1990s and early 2000s as their DCW rep and historian. Some of the GSC corps were involved participating in DCI, and some were not. The ones that were made a point in meetings numerous times that the rules, scoring, and eventually even the particular judging pool GSC was to use should correspond with those of DCI....that it would help them do better in DCI competition, and thus reflect favorably on the GSC as a whole.

[actucker]

Really? Then who was posting under your account name a few weeks ago? They had no shortage of such opinions voiced in this same forum, even based on shows viewed via broadcast instead of in person. Hmmm....

For a percussion person, you (or whoever hacked your account) seem to have felt qualified to comment on brass and visual here in the past.

Geez, you even judge contests before they happen....

So spare me the "no opinion" act. We all have opinions....as we all should.

There was more than one surprising move in these shows. In the 2011 example, not only did Crown go from first to fourth, but the Cadets overcame a 3-point loss to BD to beat them the very next night. Bluecoats lost to PR by a full point one night, then beat them by a full point the next night. And while SCV and Blue Stars stayed in place, Blue Stars gained 2.4 points on them.

Once the judges have access to last night's recaps, though, you just don't see that kind of movement between corps anymore.

Yes. I said that in my post.

You lost me there. Generally speaking, placement changes are equally likely from higher-placing corps losing their edge vs. lower corps moving up. Am I missing something?

Continuing to mischaracterize what I say is the real cop-out.

Now who's mischaracterizing. You specifically stated that upon ONE viewing of a show, you felt that there were several instances in which total placement could/should have been different. That suggests (whether you admit it or not) that you think you're qualified to judge every single caption on the sheets in one viewing. At no point have I ever suggested that I'm qualified to do that. Considering the professionals are paid to judge only one caption on a single viewing, I'm thinking a fan like you and I are unlikely to be able to do the job that 8 of them do in the same amount of time.

The opinion I expressed was based on several viewings of a pair of shows. I keep up pretty carefully on the broadcasts, as well as going to live shows when they are in my area. So, having seen Crown several times, both in broadcast, and live this season, I think my opinion was based on a little more than one viewing. I also specifically mentioned that I did not see the show, so I couldn't comment on what happened at the show. I was simply making observations based on recent events, scores, and my experiences seeing the shows. There's a big difference between that and claiming the ability to judge 8 captions at once. Go ahead, keep trying to put words in my mouth.

Now onto your silly claims that are pretty easily refuted. "You don't see that kind of movement when the judges saw the recap from the night before".

June 20, Mesa AZ

Phantom Regiment - 73.1

Santa Clara Vanguard - 67.6

June 23, Stanford CA

Phantom Regiment - 73.1

Santa Clara Vanguard - 71.4

Santa clara picks up almost four points on Phantom in the course of three days.

July 6th, Whitewater, WI

Cavaliers - 73.2

Spirit - 72.5

July 7th, Kalamazoo, MI

Spirit - 74.15

Cavaliers - 73.55

July 9th, Centerville, OH

Cavaliers - 75.3

Spirit - 74.5

Spirit and Cavaliers trade placements twice in three meetings, by nearly a point each way.

July 27th, Murpreesboro TN

Phantom Regiment - 89.4

Cadets - 88.1

July 28th, Atlanta Georgia

Cadets - 90.6

Phantom Regiment 90.4

Cadets overcome a 1 point differential to beat Phantom the next night.

That's just what I could find in a couple of minutes on the scores page on DCI.org.

Your argument doesn't hold water. Sorry.

"Right now, competition is so stagnated that just about anything that rocks the boat would be a positive. Granted, audience voting wouldn't be my first choice....but I think we need some small portion of the 100 points given out by people outside of the long-time DCI judging pool. They can be entertainment industry professionals, performers, musicians, music teachers, or even trained judges from other marching music circuits....anyone that brings a fresh perspective, and won't be guided by last night's recaps."

Your words, not mine. You are calling for people to be brought in who will "rock the boat", and "won't be guided by last nigh's recaps". How exactly is that NOT blaming "stagnant competition on the judging?

[actucker]

Do you think "nothing to do with DCI", is a more accurate characterization?

The man said

"Except you ignore that almost all of those corps that folded over time had very little, if anything, to do with DCI. "

So about that mischaracterization...

[audiodb]

Now who's mischaracterizing. You specifically stated that upon ONE viewing of a show, you felt that there were several instances in which total placement could/should have been different.

This is pointless. I specifically stated that I attended numerous shows in 2012, not just one. And what could I possibly have thought should be "different" between contests if I only saw one contest? You are not making any sense.

That suggests (whether you admit it or not) that you think you're qualified to judge every single caption on the sheets in one viewing. At no point have I ever suggested that I'm qualified to do that.

Never said anything about qualifications.

Considering the professionals are paid to judge only one caption on a single viewing, I'm thinking a fan like you and I are unlikely to be able to do the job that 8 of them do in the same amount of time.

Never said I was doing a judge's job. A judge's job is far more than just forming opinions....it's also about documenting them clearly, accurately and promptly; quantifying them in the context of the DCI scoring system; providing comments to corps staffs; and more.

The opinion I expressed was based on several viewings of a pair of shows. I keep up pretty carefully on the broadcasts, as well as going to live shows when they are in my area. So, having seen Crown several times, both in broadcast, and live this season, I think my opinion was based on a little more than one viewing. I also specifically mentioned that I did not see the show, so I couldn't comment on what happened at the show. I was simply making observations based on recent events, scores, and my experiences seeing the shows. There's a big difference between that and claiming the ability to judge 8 captions at once. Go ahead, keep trying to put words in my mouth.

Well, I see from this and some of your past posts that I have hit a particularly raw nerve. And I think I know why....

Now onto your silly claims that are pretty easily refuted. "You don't see that kind of movement when the judges saw the recap from the night before".

June 20, Mesa AZ

Phantom Regiment - 73.1

Santa Clara Vanguard - 67.6

June 23, Stanford CA

Phantom Regiment - 73.1

Santa Clara Vanguard - 71.4

Santa clara picks up almost four points on Phantom in the course of three days.

July 6th, Whitewater, WI

Cavaliers - 73.2

Spirit - 72.5

July 7th, Kalamazoo, MI

Spirit - 74.15

Cavaliers - 73.55

July 9th, Centerville, OH

Cavaliers - 75.3

Spirit - 74.5

Spirit and Cavaliers trade placements twice in three meetings, by nearly a point each way.

July 27th, Murpreesboro TN

Phantom Regiment - 89.4

Cadets - 88.1

July 28th, Atlanta Georgia

Cadets - 90.6

Phantom Regiment 90.4

Cadets overcome a 1 point differential to beat Phantom the next night.

That's just what I could find in a couple of minutes on the scores page on DCI.org.

Well, then, you'd better dig deeper. Show me other recent situations where all four pairs of corps in an eight-corps WC contest either swapped positions (up to three spots in the process), or moved two points in relation to each other, all in one day. None of your examples come anywhere close.

[audiodb]

The man said

"Except you ignore that almost all of those corps that folded over time had very little, if anything, to do with DCI. "

So about that mischaracterization...

Try DCP's search feature. There is far more posting history behind this than just what appears in this thread.

[lindap]

The man said

"Except you ignore that almost all of those corps that folded over time had very little, if anything, to do with DCI. "

So about that mischaracterization...

Maybe the point is that there were many local and regional contests bitd. A trip to a DCI sanctioned contest was a one night stand

I've often wondered how many ideas, derived from a corps that was pure and struggling, were implemented by a corps who was not?

edit: a few minutes after I posted my IE hung, had to unplug, start again, weird? back to compiling info for corps from ducky dino ;)

Edited September 7, 2012 by lindap

[JonW]

Try DCP's search feature. There is far more posting history behind this than just what appears in this thread.

You're not supposed to remember the stuff someone posted past a day or two before! How can anyone continue to spout the stuff they want you to believe if you can go back and dig up other stuff that contradicts themselves.

[actucker]

This is pointless. I specifically stated that I attended numerous shows in 2012, not just one. And what could I possibly have thought should be "different" between contests if I only saw one contest? You are not making any sense.

Never said anything about qualifications.

Never said I was doing a judge's job. A judge's job is far more than just forming opinions....it's also about documenting them clearly, accurately and promptly; quantifying them in the context of the DCI scoring system; providing comments to corps staffs; and more.

Well, I see from this and some of your past posts that I have hit a particularly raw nerve. And I think I know why....

Well, then, you'd better dig deeper. Show me other recent situations where all four pairs of corps in an eight-corps WC contest either swapped positions (up to three spots in the process), or moved two points in relation to each other, all in one day. None of your examples come anywhere close.

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't know that several corps had to have unusually good or bad nights to prove your point. You asked for significant changes in placement in respect to previous recent placement. I gave you examples of that.

What raw nerve. Go ahead and enlighten me. You know absolutely nothing about me. I'm simply responding to your posts with a contrary point of view. It seems like you can't handle that without getting an attitude.

Again, your words were

"I don't know about you, but I went to a lot of shows this season....saw a lot of performances up close. Most world-class corps perform at a very high level, and consistently so. A great deal of the consistency we see in contest results are simply an accurate reflection of that fact. That said, at times there are some day-to-day variations in performance clear enough to cause multi-spot fluctuations in caption placements and actual changes in overall placement between these closely-matched competitors. Sometimes, I saw the judge in a particular caption respond exactly as I did. Sometimes, I instead saw that column on the recap parrot the most recent night's results. Too little of the former and too much of the latter, and the overall placements never change....like with 2012's 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th place corps."

If that's not suggesting that you feel that you saw some of those exact performances, I don't know what is. Your claim is that there are big enough changes in performance quality from day to day to justify changes in overall placement. Considering your mention of the shows you went to, one can only draw the conclusion that you felt you witnessed those changes in performance level. You even mentioned that you agreed with some changes in some performance captions (yes, plural), while others did not align with your opinion.

Again, if that's not suggesting that you can read multiple captions at once (something nobody in the entire judging community can do), I don't know what is.

Your point that you attended multiple shows is irrelevant considering the point your trying to make is that one performance is different from another (enough to change placements).

My point is that while there are variations in performance quality (I think we can all agree on that), and there is certainly movement within captions from night to night (more in some than others), its not often a drastic enough change in performance quality to create huge fluctuations in placement. Again, even if I thought you had a point about the availability of recap placement, a sample size of 4 shows would not be nearly big enough to convince anyone who knows anything about statistical analysis. Show me a season's worth of data that consistently proves your point and you might have something to go on. Instead, you have one instance where placement varied significantly from one night to the next, which is at the very beginning of the season, often the most volatile time of the year.

Your "evidence" is flimsy at best. I don't know what else to tell you.

By the way, where exactly was the recap influence when Crossmen beat out Blue Stars to make the top 12 (after being a full 2 points back from them as late as August 5th).

For the record, which shows did you think Crown should have beaten BD at. What about Bluecoats and Vanguard. Just curious. From your post, you clearly think there were some instances there.

Edited September 7, 2012 by actucker