audiodb Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Again, if that's not suggesting that you can read multiple captions at once (something nobody in the entire judging community can do), I don't know what is. Are you suggesting (for example) that no one can evaluate brass and percussion at the same time? Your point that you attended multiple shows is irrelevant considering the point your trying to make is that one performance is different from another (enough to change placements). Again, you totally lost me. The only way anyone could arrive at the opinion that one performance is different from another is by seeing them both. My point is that while there are variations in performance quality (I think we can all agree on that), and there is certainly movement within captions from night to night (more in some than others), its not often a drastic enough change in performance quality to create huge fluctuations in placement. Yes. I already said that in the post you quoted. Again, even if I thought you had a point about the availability of recap placement, a sample size of 4 shows would not be nearly big enough to convince anyone who knows anything about statistical analysis. Show me a season's worth of data that consistently proves your point and you might have something to go on. Instead, you have one instance where placement varied significantly from one night to the next, which is at the very beginning of the season, often the most volatile time of the year.Your "evidence" is flimsy at best. I don't know what else to tell you. Oh, if only you didn't tell me anything else. Just take this paragraph alone, and you have a valid opinion delivered clearly and respectfully. If you don't think what I present "proves" my point, you are free to disagree. Fact is, those two weekends are all we have to go on. Maybe it's not enough to "prove" what I am saying. We can hold differing opinions on that. By the way, where exactly was the recap influence when Crossmen beat out Blue Stars to make the top 12 (after being a full 2 points back from them as late as August 5th). That was four days earlier. For the record, which shows did you think Crown should have beaten BD at. What about Bluecoats and Vanguard. Just curious. From your post, you clearly think there were some instances there. Considering that according to you, I have no right to form cross-caption opinions on these corps in the first place, what point would there be in taking your bait and sharing such opinions here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Are you suggesting (for example) that no one can evaluate brass and percussion at the same time? I'm suggesting that nobody is qualified to make the same distinction that 8 separate people are paid to make in fragments. There's a reason the sheets are split into captions. Its hard enough for one judge to properly evaluate his own caption. There is, in fact, a lot of conversation on this board about that very subject, and whether or not some captions should have more than one judge. So yes. To the level of detail needed to make a determination that one group should be ahead of another based on performance quality from one night to the next, nobody is qualified to judge 8 captions on a single read. Do you really disagree? No, one day is not enough to prove a trend. That's not a difference of opinion we have. That's a fact. The problem is, you're making suggestions/allegations that the judging community at large are incapable of judging without being influenced by the previous nights results. You're even calling to have "fresh perspective" to shake things up. I'd think more than a single instance would be necessary to back up that suggestion, but that's just me. As for the Crossmen example, they hadn't beaten Blue Stars once all year. If the judges are truly so influenced by the recaps, why would they all of a sudden close a 2 point gap in 2 days and make it into finals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I understand where you're coming from, (and thank you for actually having a conversation). I don't know that hours of research are necessary to understand what the hobby horses were. I don't even know that you had to know that they were hobby horses (I didn't even notice the horse part until it was pointed out to me, I was instead busy wondering what was up with the half uniforms). Sure, there were plenty of people who didn't get it, and again, I think if there were a flaw in the effect in that show design it was that unless you were up on the intellectual side of the effect, you could miss some deeper stuff. However, that doesn't stop them from being effective in general. Even just from a marching and playing standpoint, I felt like they were much more effective than Crown. Don't get me wrong, I loved Crown's show, and it was certainly effective, but the sheer control of the field that BD's members had was stunning. In my opinion (I'm not on the BD design staff, so this is just conjecture), I think overloading the senses was a big part of what they wanted in terms of effect. That confusion and inability to be sure what was going on was exactly what they were after. Again, not an effect a lot of people will like necessarily, but still an effect. Unorthodox for sure. But again, not lacking in effect. The fact is, we're splitting hairs here. BD won effect by .3. They were second in music effect, as they probably should have been considering Crown's brass line, and more mainstream musical composition. However, their visual effect was stunning. It was close, and a good argument could be made for Crown winning effect. However, to simply go by what is "entertaining, or engaging" in the most traditional sense, you'd have to believe that Jersey Surf would have to be in the top 5 in general effect. That is simply not the case, nor should it be. Personally, I liked Crown better than BD, but even that IMO hadsome flaws....like the fact it went nowhere after Common Man. And I'm not saying BD was box 4, but I do not think they were high box 5 either. Now I'm not asking for 23 Surf style shows. They did theirs just fine. But we continue to have this disconnect between fans and GE, even fans who know what GE is. Now if I have no knowledge about GE, I see this show ( and some others BTW..>SCV last year for example), I'm wondering why I keep coming back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Personally, I liked Crown better than BD, but even that IMO hadsome flaws....like the fact it went nowhere after Common Man. And I'm not saying BD was box 4, but I do not think they were high box 5 either. Now I'm not asking for 23 Surf style shows. They did theirs just fine. But we continue to have this disconnect between fans and GE, even fans who know what GE is. Now if I have no knowledge about GE, I see this show ( and some others BTW..>SCV last year for example), I'm wondering why I keep coming back. i would think one comes back because they like the activity and that there are more than 1 corps to look at...which includes more than 1 style of design...problem is if you talk to some randomly...some dont like things because of design choice....some like design for the most part but dont like chopped mucic...some are ok with chopped music but dont like electronics...some are ok with electronics but dont like what someone is wearing or change...some are ok with change but dont like indoor dome shows...some are ok with indoor shows but dont like design choice.....theres the picture...so what happens is corps just do their thing and there should be plenty out there to like as well as dislike...just like BITD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Now I'm not asking for 23 Surf style shows. They did theirs just fine. But we continue to have this disconnect between fans and GE, even fans who know what GE is. Now if I have no knowledge about GE, I see this show ( and some others BTW..>SCV last year for example), I'm wondering why I keep coming back. Anecdotal story...I sat next to new complete newbies at West Chester, a couple about my age (late 50's). Never had seen a corps show before. I had thought they might pick Surf and/or Cadets as their favorite, but they liked Crown and SCV best. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 i would think one comes back because they like the activity and that there are more than 1 corps to look at...which includes more than 1 style of design...problem is if you talk to some randomly...some dont like things because of design choice....some like design for the most part but dont like chopped mucic...some are ok with chopped music but dont like electronics...some are ok with electronics but dont like what someone is wearing or change...some are ok with change but dont like indoor dome shows...some are ok with indoor shows but dont like design choice.....theres the picture...so what happens is corps just do their thing and there should be plenty out there to like as well as dislike...just like BITD and many are tired of multiples of the above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Anecdotal story...I sat next to new complete newbies at West Chester, a couple about my age (late 50's). Never had seen a corps show before. I had thought they might pick Surf and/or Cadets as their favorite, but they liked Crown and SCV best. easy to get. I also sat next to some newbies in Allentown. kids, the age we're all about right? They made fun of BD openly the whole show. Can't claim regional bias either, they cracked a lot of jokes about Cadets too. But ####, did they love Phantom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 and many are tired of multiples of the above. well we all cant have everything ..can we....theres plenty out there for everyone....thank goodness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 easy to get. I also sat next to some newbies in Allentown. kids, the age we're all about right? They made fun of BD openly the whole show. Can't claim regional bias either, they cracked a lot of jokes about Cadets too. But ####, did they love Phantom which goes to show you that different things for different people do exsist.and is fine..i can say the same of both posts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 and many are tired of multiples of the above. and conversely many are happy with multiples. It's a big world, and surprisingly one or two (or several) people's opinions do not equal the end all/be all consensus of what's best for the activity 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.