The 990's

[Pete Freedman]

I don't do ratings, however I find this exercise in number analyzation fairly pointless. Anyone who's ever prepared taxes and other financial paperwork for a business or non-profit knows that often numbers can be represented to present any number of scenarios that may or may not accurately reflect the real financial stability (or lack there of).

The well-known stories in the Hollywood film industry, where a movie can gross half a billion dollars at the box office but still lose a studio money, is a good example of a business that creatively presents data (in this case, over exaggerating or guesstimating of expenses) for a specific reason (to avoid paying royalty and 'bonus' salaries to talent based on a film turning a profit).

Far be it from me to accuse DCI or any of its organizations of illegally cooking the books or something: I sincerely have little doubt that is the case. I'm just saying that like many things discussed on a public forum, without all of the proper information any sort of speculation is fun and pointless at best, and damaging at worst.

I think Garfield is one of those people.

I'm always amused by those who discard statistical evidence by saying "you can say anything with numbers" or "it's too easy to lie with statistics". Yeah, but it's even easier to lie without them. Statistical evidence is the cornerstone of modern decision making. It is imperfect, because as you say it is possible to mislead using this kind of evidence. Which just means you have to be watchful. But it's still the best way.

How can non-profits lie on their 990s? Find out how it's done, present your evidence here, and maybe we can spot it when some corps tries to hoodwink us!

[perc2100]

Come for the goofy conspiracies, stay for the intelligent discussion.

Ha; I'll gladly do this every day of the week (or at least until Hopkins kidnaps me as part of his longterm diabolical plan to first rule drum corps, and then...the world)

[Peel Paint]

I read the posts on this thread and wonder....Why would the average drum corps fan care? Seems like some people have too much time on their hands to think of this stuff. BITD, did anyone care about what money DCI made? NO! Is this the....seasons over and I want to make a name for myself on DCP? Some of you just sit at your desk or on your couch and think, "How can I cause problems on DCP today?" Gee, get a life!

(Waiting for well-thought out reply and a slap in the face)

Dedicated drum corps fans who seldom think about the financial realities of running a not-for-profit arts organization can learn much from a detailed discussion of corps finances as seen in the 990s. There's a reason these documents are made public: they encourage accountability and thought.

The discussion could turn into a tin-hat conspiracy-hat fest as perc suggests, but it certainly hasn't yet. And when has that possibility ever discouraged DCP from tackling challenging topics in the past?

Anyone from DCI or any corps who thinks their figures are being misinterpreted is certainly free to chime in with an alternate view. A free and open discussion on all sides is certainly preferable to an attitude of Move Along, Nothing To See Here, Leave This Material to Insiders With A Much Better Understanding Than You Peons Out in the Stands Can Ever Hope to Have.

If a thread is--or becomes--of no interest to you, then you can either post why you think the discussion has become counterproductive or just not read it.

[JohnD]

Dedicated drum corps fans who seldom think about the financial realities of running a not-for-profit arts organization can learn much from a detailed discussion of corps finances as seen in the 990s. There's a reason these documents are made public: they encourage accountability and thought.

The discussion could turn into a tin-hat conspiracy-hat fest as perc suggests, but it certainly hasn't yet. And when has that possibility ever discouraged DCP from tackling challenging topics in the past?

Anyone from DCI or any corps who thinks their figures are being misinterpreted is certainly free to chime in with an alternate view. A free and open discussion on all sides is certainly preferable to an attitude of Move Along, Nothing To See Here, Leave This Material to Insiders With A Much Better Understanding Than You Peons Out in the Stands Can Ever Hope to Have.

If a thread is--or becomes--of no interest to you, then you can either post why you think the discussion has become counterproductive or just not read it.

Thank you. That's why we keep the lights on. Sy Syms used to say, "An educated consumer is our best customer". I believe that axiom holds true in most things - not just suits.

[garfield]

KH, I'm really sorry you got whacked 10 red neggies for posting your opinion. (/sarcasm ). And I really thought about posting something snide about all the bandwidth you use posting stuff that only angry white men would want to read, but I respected your post and actually gave you a greenie.

I'm about to end the discussion and launch into what we can find out about the corps, but I want to get a couple of things out there before we head on.

First, I am a financial professional by all the definitions you can think of but I'm not a CPA. I have, in fact, studied dozens and dozens of 990's - and not in drum corps - hoping to do exactly what you suggest this thread might become - a bash-fest. Generally speaking, that's the common reason anyone would pore over such stuff. Although I do enjoy the hunt, however, that's not my motivation and, as the threads OP, I'll ask the mods PDQ to shut it down if it reverts to that because, well, for the reasons I explained in that first post.

That said, you're right, the average fan wouldn't, and doesn't, care about this subject. And in the past (that you seem to love bloviating about), when there were dozens of corps it didn't matter if one or two or a dozen corps went kerplunk; there would still be a show to go to in hundreds of locations on any summer night. We didn't care about the financials until there weren't shows any more. Then we cared. When it was too late.

I happen to be able to read 990's and I'm not bad at presenting data. I was unsure who would give a darn but I see some curious onlookers, even if you're not (yet) one of them. It's only my passion for the activity that I do this exercise and post it. And, if no one cared, I'd still study the 990's because if, by chance, some corps director (or I) wanted to know why the perceived strongest corps are so strong, I'd like to be able to react with more than just a shrug. Probably not unlike why your passion takes you to the history side of the activity.

I'm sure the mods are watching closely to make sure the thread doesn't get out of hand.

And Perc2100, I get your point that this exercize is probably pointless except for the small benefit of pure knowledge but, if you had the opportunity, wouldn't you want to satisfy your curiosity about why the movie industry can't seem to make money? If you could peek inside, even just out of curiosity, would you? That's all this is about.

But please recognize that my intent doesn't begin with a presumption that anyone, anywhere is "cooking the books"; I don't believe that for a moment even if the 990's do give the opportunity.

From my perspective, I'm the type of guy who, if I discovered something that I did disagree with or not understand, I would contact the party to get clarification or voice my opinion. I believe I have that right with DCI (to voice me opinion) simply because my passion has caused me to give much to the activity over nearly 40 years. Still, I recognize that I'm probably unique in that view.

This thread is about nothing more nefarious than that.

But if the data promotes healthy discussion and banter on DCP, well, that's what we're good at here, after all.

G

Edited January 22, 2016 by garfield

[garfield]

I smell a cover up!

Is it coincidence that Mr Boo, DCI's chief apologist, is under some sort of order from DCI's imprimatur prohibiting his posting on DCP links to DCI's website at exactly the same time as someone who understands DCI's 990's is translating them for the masses?

I think not!

I never met a conspiracy theory I didn't like!

Now, where did I put my tin-foil cover?

PS Garfield - keep up the good work. Like Deep Throat said during Watergate - "Follow the money".

(In my best Schultz voice...)

"I know nothing. I want to know nothing."

And while I appreciate the sentiment, I'm a little uncomfortable in any situation being refered to as a "Deep Throat".

[Corbin]

Garfield. I, for one, am very grateful for the information you have provided so far. What does this information tell you about the activity as a whole? I think this is a question suited for those that know how to read these things.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Corbin

[IllianaLancerContra]

Garfield. I, for one, am very grateful for the information you have provided so far. What does this information tell you about the activity as a whole? I think this is a question suited for those that know how to read these things.

I agree with this sentiment, and as I understand you are very familiar w/ analyzing 990s, where does the info DCI's 990s fall in the range of 990s for other organizations you are familiar with?

[IllianaLancerContra]

[double post

Edited November 15, 2012 by IllianaLancerContra

[Michael Boo]

Ppffftttt... chuckle, chuckle, bash my knuckle.

This is the most intellectual post of this entire thread.

Thanks for NAILING the point of my "useless" exercise, Mike.

You're welcome, and the bill will be in the mail.