Boston Crusaders not in TOC shows?

[perc2100]

I just have to ask as your comment puzzles me...What do you consider "consistently competitively successful"?

Relative to the discussion (i.e. Crusaders and how they fit into the G7), I would consider "consistently competitively successful" as consistently placing in the Top 7, minus a down year or two. Boston has consistently placed in Finals, and occasionally has challenged for Top 6, but to put them in a consistent competitive 'tier' as even Bluecoats, SCV, or Phantom Regiment (corps that have occasionally placed outside of Top 6 in the last several years but are generally in the Top 7 every year) is not accurate, IMO.

Now, given comments made in this discussion regarding BAC's support of DCI, and seems obvious that they have no desire to leave DCI (i.e. it has little/nothing to do with their competitive success/history and more to do with politics and commitment to the current model of the activity).

Edited November 26, 2012 by perc2100

[perc2100]

Yes Liahona, I can see where someone might think that Boston isn't consistently successful.... :doh:/>/>

Compared to the rest of G7, Boston is not competitively successful. Period. They have had some good years, and IMO are consistently in the hunt for, say, a 7th or 8th place spot. But very few people outside of BAC loyal fan base would consider them a consistent contender for Top 6, let alone Top 3 or something. Yes, they have been around for over 70 years in one sense or another, and they have proven that they are indeed scrappers who have staying power. But compared to a corps that, say, has been around not as long as BAC but is a perennial Top 5 finisher (and one where finishing 5th would be a disappointment): or a corps that is constantly Top 3, where not medaling is a "bad year." Or a corps that hasn't had a finalist run as long as BAC but constantly wins brass and has been in the hunt for a Championship a few times lately (and has won an Open Class Championship).

When BAC places 8th, it's a great year that its fans (rightfully) celebrate.

When any of the G7 place 8th it is a huge disappointing year because that is not their standard. BAC is a great corps, and I do have huge respect for them. I've really enjoyed their shows the last couple of years, and I do wish them success. But to say that they are in the same class as even Cavaliers (whom BAC beat at Finals last season) historically just isn't true for most drum corps folks: even Bluecoats, who have placed outside of 6th just three times in the last decade (while BAC has placed in Top 6 just ONCE in that time, and only placed top 7 three times) are typically far more competitive than Boston.

Edited November 26, 2012 by perc2100

[perc2100]

Yes perc, it would suck. Just for the record nobody said that we would have a better finals, just that we would be fine with what we had.

I'm not so sure that's true, though. People on DCP constantly talk about how great Open Class corps are, and how much hard work, dedication, etc. goes into the corps. But every year it's like pulling teeth getting people in the stands.

I suspect that if the G7 corps completely broke away from DCI, and we were left with a Finals stated previously in this thread, that attendance would take a huge dive. I could be wrong, and it would be freaking awesome if I was: imagine what a statement (and political power against the G7) it would be to have huge attendance supporting a non-G7 FInals. But I don't think that would happen. I actually think the G7 breaking away from DCI could be the absolute end to drum corps as we know it for awhile: that situation would suck for everyone (which is why I would bet that won't happen - I think the G7 corps know that they need DCI as much as DCI needs them).

I have to wonder... why certain Corps are not pushing to get into the Music and Motion series?

I suspect because they know they wouldn't be able to: either they've already aligned themselves politically with DCI (as BAC's Director seems to have done), or they know that they have no place at the Top 7 corps table. Or maybe the Top 7 corps don't really want any more groups syphoning money from their enterprise. While we've seen the powerpoint, and heard some stories from folks about this, I can imagine that the actual discussion was (and continues to be) quite heated: how could it not? Either your on the inside of the G7 with your ego raging as you think the activity revolves around you and your peers, or your on the outside being told you offer no services to the activity.

I can't imagine the tension and divide that this junk has caused in the activity behind the scenes. Imagine being Dan A, running DCI (fairly successfully), and being blindsided by some of the top corps, that DCI SUPPORTS, and being told they want to fire you and run the show themselves. Brutal.

[Band Diddles]

That's what I just posted... Boston WAS part of the TOC in 2012, because they came in 8th in 2011. They came in 7th in 2012, but the OTHER SEVEN corps decided to make it about only them. Hence, the "TOC" is now called "Music in Motion" and only includes last summer's 1-6th place corps + the 8th place corps, so NO BAC.

Completely misread your post lol my bad.

[charlie1223]

Can't stand the way people are personifying the G7 corps. If you are someone who thinks no corps deserve more or less based on their relative fan base and income then the TOC shows are JUST another drum corps show. Boston isn't in that show... So so what? They are still a great corps and not being in those shows shouldn't influence that. They can do their own series if they would like!

It is really annoying to hear all this G7 controversy resurfacing... Maybe I'm a bad person because I admit that corps have different fan bases and income streams and talent levels. It's doesn't make them better persay but it makes them different... there's no PC way to discuss it I guess because emotions tied to corps names And organizations are strong. But it's more grounding to think that the members in all the corps are exactly the same with different motivations and talent levels. Every corps is only the sum of their members/staff year in and year out and think about how often those change and switch corps! And I think what the fans want to see is what the members want to participate in aswell. A top echilon of drum corps and the aspiration to one day be among the ranks. forget corps names, it's what members strive for absolutely (ill say most of the time so ppl dont think I'm making a sweeping statement)

Edited November 26, 2012 by charlie1223

[craiga]

I will let most of the above comments speak for themselves...and they speak loudly, in my view.

It occurs to me that "elite", whether by statistical scoring or self-proclamation may well be a matter of timing. Many things in life are temporary, and drum corps is no exception. For those G7 supporters out there who do not understand the ire of supporters of groups like Boston, Madison, Spirit, Troopers, Crossmen, etc, consider the following:

I wonder, how would the supporters/members/ fans of the Blue Devils have felt in 1973, if THAT year's top 7 arbitrarily decided to host their own shows, and BD wouldn't be invited, because they had just come in 24th, and had no history of "consistent competitive success"?

What if this has happened in 1980, when the Cadets placed 10th, after placing 16th the year before?

What about 1982, when the Cavies placed 9th, after several lowering placing years only a few years before?

How about 2003, when Carolina Crown placed 10th, after several years of FAR lower placements?

Or, 2005, when SCV took 8th?

And of course, in 2009 when Phantom Regiment placed 9th after winning it all the year before? Consistency?

And best of all, when Star of Indiana didn't even exist in 1983? Can you imagine someone telling THEM you can't join the group because you are not a "Premier" corps and have no history of "consistent competitive success"?

That is the trouble with trying to manufacture and institutionalize success. Timing does matter.

Edited November 26, 2012 by craiga

[Jeff Ream]

For my money, it would suck. Sorry, I like those corps as well, but finals w/out Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers, SCV, Crown, etc. would be really lacking (unless, of course, all of the current Top 6 corps tanked and were replaced by those corps mentioned who performed better). I don't agree with those corps attempting to break from DCI (if that's the case), and their "we're better than everyone else" attitude, while possibly true, does sting. But to say that we would have a better Finals w/out their participation is either blind disloyalty or naivety

honestly....if no G7 were involved, I'd actually consider going to Indy, much as I hate the stadium, just to help those that remain

[Jeff Ream]

Compared to the rest of G7, Boston is not competitively successful. Period. They have had some good years, and IMO are consistently in the hunt for, say, a 7th or 8th place spot. But very few people outside of BAC loyal fan base would consider them a consistent contender for Top 6, let alone Top 3 or something. Yes, they have been around for over 70 years in one sense or another, and they have proven that they are indeed scrappers who have staying power. But compared to a corps that, say, has been around not as long as BAC but is a perennial Top 5 finisher (and one where finishing 5th would be a disappointment): or a corps that is constantly Top 3, where not medaling is a "bad year." Or a corps that hasn't had a finalist run as long as BAC but constantly wins brass and has been in the hunt for a Championship a few times lately (and has won an Open Class Championship).

When BAC places 8th, it's a great year that its fans (rightfully) celebrate.

When any of the G7 place 8th it is a huge disappointing year because that is not their standard. BAC is a great corps, and I do have huge respect for them. I've really enjoyed their shows the last couple of years, and I do wish them success. But to say that they are in the same class as even Cavaliers (whom BAC beat at Finals last season) historically just isn't true for most drum corps folks: even Bluecoats, who have placed outside of 6th just three times in the last decade (while BAC has placed in Top 6 just ONCE in that time, and only placed top 7 three times) are typically far more competitive than Boston.

it is kind of funny though, because it wasn't all thatlong ago, Boston was consistently beating Bluecoats and Crown. In fact, during that span, they have victories over pretty much everyone but BD and Cadets

[Jeff Ream]

Can't stand the way people are personifying the G7 corps. If you are someone who thinks no corps deserve more or less based on their relative fan base and income then the TOC shows are JUST another drum corps show. Boston isn't in that show... So so what? They are still a great corps and not being in those shows shouldn't influence that. They can do their own series if they would like!

It is really annoying to hear all this G7 controversy resurfacing... Maybe I'm a bad person because I admit that corps have different fan bases and income streams and talent levels. It's doesn't make them better persay but it makes them different... there's no PC way to discuss it I guess because emotions tied to corps names And organizations are strong. But it's more grounding to think that the members in all the corps are exactly the same with different motivations and talent levels. Every corps is only the sum of their members/staff year in and year out and think about how often those change and switch corps! And I think what the fans want to see is what the members want to participate in aswell. A top echilon of drum corps and the aspiration to one day be among the ranks. forget corps names, it's what members strive for absolutely (ill say most of the time so ppl dont think I'm making a sweeping statement)

it's a bad thing because 7 corps want to place themselves above the rest, and drain the insititution that helped make most of them what they currently are. Really, if you look at the G7, only two of them have real what you call successful history pre-DCI...Cadets and Cavies. And let's be honest, those two were not real powers in the first decade of DCI.

are thsoe G7corps usually towards the top of the scores? well some have been for years, some only recently. But the plan, to eliminate things like OC, which feeds many of those corps bodies, andthe naked power/money grab well.....it doesn't sit well with people.

Especially since some of those corps doing the grabbing are the ones begging for money to cover their spending year in and year out.

here's way to look at it....it's like the big corporations that came to the government begging for bailouts. How many of them have actually gotten around to doing better business? Few. But their CEO's got their bonuses

[BRASSO]

Two answers:

Boston did participate in the 2012 TOC, because that grouping of corps was determnined by the prior (2011) year's placement.

For 2013, DCI placement no longer qualifies corps to be in the TOC (now rebranded as "Music in Motion"). The G7 corps are organizing and hosting their own series, featuring only the seven corps they choose, in effect, disregarding BAC's 7th place finish in 2012.

Music in Motion participation is NOT decided by DCI...it is decided by Music in Motion.

It is a new world in drum corps for 2013.

Basically what happened is that the Boston Crusaders fully qualified for the TOC for the 2013 season under the terms that Gibbs and Hopkins set up 2 years ago in their G7 Powerpoint Presentation.... and did so on the field of competition. These 2 even said how important it was to stick to these terms back then. Remember that ?. Both these Corps Directors lost the trust and support of DCI Membership and were replaced by DCI Membership on the Executive Board by others... one of whom elected ( and since reelected ) was Tom Spartaro, Corps Director of the Boston Crusaders. His Corps,although opposed to a slotting system creation within the World Class Division, neverthelesss qualified for TOC membershipfor 2013 once again. But these 2 decided to change the rules for inclusion and so they scrapped the TOC qualifyer and just decided to select whomever they wanted and changed the name to "Music in Motion ", (or as I have coined this new incantation.....the " Mendacity in Motion ".) I suppose they have a right to invite whomever they want, but fair play would have called or themto have invited the Boston Crusaders and then allow them the opportunity to accept or decline. But it is what it is, and those Corps Directors that have oppossed this attempt at creating a permanent slotting system within the World Class Division by a handful of self proclaimed Corps are to be applauded for remaining true to the Mission Statement of DCI that ALL Corps have agreed to with their entry and their participation in the DCI Organization. Thats how I see it anyway.

Edited November 26, 2012 by BRASSO