TESB Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 (edited) Watching the shakos bob everywhere was distracting me from feet, honestly. If anyone is confused about this poster's last paragraph, watch 2010 again. I recall over the summer Hopkins addressing this issue in judge critiques. He posted on facebook I think sometime during the Texas tour week something about an account of a conversation he had with judges. He pointed out that formula of playing in half time or standing still and making the big moves during the fancy music or no music at all. He must have been talking about BD and Crown. Boy were cadets hauling this year. Even Crown was visually never seriously taxed for more than a few drill moves at a time. Seriously, really watch the shows and count how many times kids' feet hit the ground between yard lines, pay attention to whether toes are up or down, and you'll be surprised not only at how often Crown's drill was pretty reasonable and how rarely they actually needed to go toes down, but also how many 6-5s and 5-5s and 4-5s you missed in Cabaret Voltaire or Turandot or 12.25 because you wanted to believe their shows were too easy and Crown has the hardest most difficult show ever in DCI history ever(!), and that doesn't even begin to address how clean anyone's drill was. But Cadets just never stopped and played all the while, the pacing was killer compared to Crown or BD or PR's show, they just almost never got a break. Hop had a point. Maybe this is the wrong topic to talk about this but oh well lol. Edited February 20, 2013 by TESB 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim K Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I enjoyed Crown's show last summer, and I found it more interesting than that of Cadets and Phantom and this is not a slight to either Cadets or PR. I love Christmas music and really enjoyed Cadets and I love "Turandot" and PR has never disappointed me. I enjoyed the fast pace of Crown's show, was amazed at the brass arrangements and performance and found 2012 to be Crown's best effort yet. I will say that I am surprised Cadets and PR only topped Crown once this year in Akron very early in the season, but as the season progressed, Cadets did lose some steam ad if PR had used some other music from "Turandot" we could easily have seen a different runner up. That being said, Crown did have a consistently good horn line. Visually they were not always behind Cadets and PR, and to use the word "significantly may be an overstatement. Percussion, not visuals, was their Achilles heel. If we look at overall scores, Crown was always a good point to point and a half higher than Cadets and PR. Interestingly they were always a point to a point and half lower than Blue Devils. In my opinion, if Crown hopes to win in 2013, they need to focus on the following: 1. Crown had many excellent performers last year who had been nurtured for the past two or three years, and word is many have aged out. Have they nurtured returning members to fill in the gaps left by these performers or recruit good and talented members to replace them? 2. It is all but a given that Crown will have excellent brass arrangements that will be well performed. This has carried Crown in the past, but it has also made their less than strong areas look weak or at best uneven. Have these areas, particularly as it pertains to percussion, been addressed? 3. Last summer, Crown seemed to have a sense of confidence in shows where BD did not appear, but when faced with BD, they could seem on edge. Have they addressed the issue of nerves? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TESB Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 (edited) I just don't see the widespread dirt.....maybe somebody needs to get a few screenshots and John Madden the hell out of it. I think you gotta be looking for it and I just don't see it. If you can't see the widespread visual dirt in For the Common Good, then I can understand why you might think Crown deserved the gold or got robbed or something. I mean from cubes>hula hoops is kinda what I'm inferring there. If there's one thing I learned in DCI, it's not to bash other kids' shows because I know I put my heart and soul and gallons of sweat into mine, but come on, FTCG just had near constant foot timing issues, interval issues, form control issues, kids breaking down technique to make dots, that means bouncing all over the place, catching air on just 6-5s. Some of the halts were really good, actually, but there were just as many that just looked bad, like what were supposed to be straight diagonals looked like stair steps. even consider that body in the fanfare ballad, almost no two or more than a few kids looked the same even at checkpoints and the spread of kids probably contributed to all that visual phasing. Aside from the rotating cube (which you could tell they just repped endlessly) they got away with murder in their closer considering they won feet, just those same interval problems, foot timing, kids falling behind, sinking down on direction changes, not completing visual phrases. Press pause at any of the crazy drill parts and it's hard to tell what's going on, who's in what pinwheel or what kids are even doing, where they're going, who they're with. Um Himmels Willen, the last set of the show, the Crown set was ugly! I'm sorry, it was, check out Cadets Crown set for comparison! Look at the way the feet line up in the front row and the not occasional, but routine interval errors and leanings, it's supposed to be 1-3-3-1 two step intervals and some kids toes are very close to or on yardlines. I really don't enjoy bashing kids and their shows on a public medium, but as a Crown fan, I know it's tough to swallow shortcomings and its frustrating to see reasoning like this. We collectively love to make excuses about percussion and the like, but even if Crown got a 20, they'd still have been about half a point short of BD. Maybe I'll get a ton of down votes for this, but you don't have to be looking for these things to notice them, you don't have to Madden the hell out of it. Edited February 20, 2013 by TESB 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickhaltsforlife Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Do you realize that the judges don't get to press pause and play out on the field? It really isn't as bad as you say... I'll admit Crown was dirtier than BD... but BD were NO SAINTS! Phantom got screwed visually.... Now onto fanfare.. the DVD recording really is bad. I have NOT enjoyed the mic placement of recent years... too close to the field. Picks up a lot of individuals. Those holes you hear in the breathing is normal stagger breathing at FFFFFFF dynamic. Depending where you were sitting in the stands.. or THE BOX you did not hear that. Many players were really right on top of the mics. It really is a shame that such a great moment went to waste on the recording because of bad mic placement. Which has been similar the last two years. It is better in that the mics are not right in front of the amps, and the amps are individually miced so that you have more options when mixing. But you hear a lot of normal dirt that you usually don't hear up in the stands. It is a better balanced recording front ensemble to field... but the recording of the field stuff goes out of wack a little more... 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamMan Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I recall over the summer Hopkins addressing this issue in judge critiques. He posted on facebook I think sometime during the Texas tour week something about an account of a conversation he had with judges. He pointed out that formula of playing in half time or standing still and making the big moves during the fancy music or no music at all. He must have been talking about BD and Crown. Boy were cadets hauling this year. Even Crown was visually never seriously taxed for more than a few drill moves at a time. Seriously, really watch the shows and count how many times kids' feet hit the ground between yard lines, pay attention to whether toes are up or down, and you'll be surprised not only at how often Crown's drill was pretty reasonable and how rarely they actually needed to go toes down, but also how many 6-5s and 5-5s and 4-5s you missed in Cabaret Voltaire or Turandot or 12.25 because you wanted to believe their shows were too easy and Crown has the hardest most difficult show ever in DCI history ever(!), and that doesn't even begin to address how clean anyone's drill was. But Cadets just never stopped and played all the while, the pacing was killer compared to Crown or BD or PR's show, they just almost never got a break. Hop had a point. Maybe this is the wrong topic to talk about this but oh well lol. The Cadets are always running all the time (hence their legendary endings from...'83 on?), which is why their show this year will be...different. I always hold them (and BD) in the highest regard because their feet are just the best, hands down. 1. Crown had many excellent performers last year who had been nurtured for the past two or three years, and word is many have aged out. Have they nurtured returning members to fill in the gaps left by these performers or recruit good and talented members to replace them? 2. It is all but a given that Crown will have excellent brass arrangements that will be well performed. This has carried Crown in the past, but it has also made their less than strong areas look weak or at best uneven. Have these areas, particularly as it pertains to percussion, been addressed? 3. Last summer, Crown seemed to have a sense of confidence in shows where BD did not appear, but when faced with BD, they could seem on edge. Have they addressed the issue of nerves? 1. It's been staggered. When two major snare drummers left after '08, things got a little rough for the line. When Herbert left the guard after '10, things got a little rough. But they always rise again, it just takes time. 2. Pit's still the worst-written book I've ever heard, consistently. They're stuck in WGI mode (harmony is rare, 'boards are just being smashed, wrists are exploding, "performance" is the only focus). 3. Crown does have great confidence, but it borders on cockiness. This mentality does not make for consistent performances and Championships. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Watching the shakos bob everywhere was distracting me from feet, honestly. I watch the show and it's so involved and mesmerizing that I can't concentrate on one thing. While all of this is going on they play so wonderfully. On top of this, I love Copeland and what they did with his music was wonderful. It was "Copland" and not "Coplandesque." They didn't win. No argument from here that they should have. I am not qualified to discuss who should have. That's why we have judges. But.... WTF was Leon May thinking when he came up with that drill? He didn't have to go that far but the fact that he did has changed the activity. Watching shakos? Not me. I still can't get past the fact they put that on the field. I still can't get past the fact that they marched it so well after putting it on the field and I still can't get past the fact that they played so wonderfully while putting that on the field. I don't care they were 2nd. If this had been 12th it would have still had the same effect on me. My heart belongs to Vanguard and Phantom but what Crown does has earned tremendous respect. They are spectacular. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellodramatic Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 3. Crown does have great confidence, but it borders on cockiness. This mentality does not make for consistent performances and Championships. That's what I like about the Blue Devils. And it definitely is cockiness from them. But hey, they have the history and swagger and the skills to back it up. The way I see Crown's visual performance is that there is a huge majority of individuals that are champs. These people could march against the best from any corps and have a very good chance at showing them up. But one or two individuals here and there, especially in really exposed drill moves, can ruin the entire effect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theCHEZman Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I recall over the summer Hopkins addressing this issue in judge critiques. He posted on facebook I think sometime during the Texas tour week something about an account of a conversation he had with judges. He pointed out that formula of playing in half time or standing still and making the big moves during the fancy music or no music at all. He must have been talking about BD and Crown. Boy were cadets hauling this year. Even Crown was visually never seriously taxed for more than a few drill moves at a time. Seriously, really watch the shows and count how many times kids' feet hit the ground between yard lines, pay attention to whether toes are up or down, and you'll be surprised not only at how often Crown's drill was pretty reasonable and how rarely they actually needed to go toes down, but also how many 6-5s and 5-5s and 4-5s you missed in Cabaret Voltaire or Turandot or 12.25 because you wanted to believe their shows were too easy and Crown has the hardest most difficult show ever in DCI history ever(!), and that doesn't even begin to address how clean anyone's drill was. But Cadets just never stopped and played all the while, the pacing was killer compared to Crown or BD or PR's show, they just almost never got a break. Hop had a point. Maybe this is the wrong topic to talk about this but oh well lol. I do agree that Cadets never received the credit for the demand they had last season. Thought judges were extremely generous with PR whose visual demand was lower than some groups in the bottom third of finals (different topic), but I disagree with anyone criticizing Crown's demand and performance. I thought they were on par with Cadet's execution from 2011 season with a more difficult show. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos001 Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I do agree that Cadets never received the credit for the demand they had last season. Thought judges were extremely generous with PR whose visual demand was lower than some groups in the bottom third of finals (different topic), but I disagree with anyone criticizing Crown's demand and performance. I thought they were on par with Cadet's execution from 2011 season with a more difficult show. Total BS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickhaltsforlife Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 (edited) Total BS. Agreed. I will never understand why Phantom's visual design has been so disrespected the past couple of years. You can't just look at how many times they jazz run per show. That does not determine difficulty. There is a lot more to it. Edited February 20, 2013 by kickhaltsforlife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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