Have DCI Standings Actually Stagnated?

[N.E. Brigand]

You missed something crucial. I am talking strictly from the corps' perspective, not the fans. Because if the corps feel that the placement they get is warranted, and if the corps feels that they have the potential to eventually move up, then it doesn't really matter what we think as fans.

I was largely talking about the corps in my post. There may be reasons that the fans' opinion on this subject matters: perhaps fans want to see more competition, or fans of any particular corps want to see their corps be competitive. And if there is a caste system in place, that may drive fans (and therefore money) away. But that hasn't been my focus (I don't think I even mentioned the fans--what did I write to make you think otherwise?): my post asks whether, if a stratification exists, lower-ranked corps are unable to move up (in some reasonable period of time) even if they're working as hard and responsibly as higher-ranked corps.

I believe that every corps feels the system is not stacked against at them or they wouldn't compete.

The Cadets don't think the current system is fair to them or the other G-7 corps. They think it needs to be radically altered to ensure their long-term survival. (At the expense of the long-term survival of other DCI corps, opponents of the G-7 would respond.) They haven't gotten all the changes they asked for: the system, in their eyes, remains unfair to them. They continue to compete. Similarly the lower-rankings corps may desire to move up, but sensibly recognizing that the system prevents them doing so (if that is the case), doesn't waste money trying to move up, and instead is slowly saving that money in hopes of making their move, say, oh, twenty years from now.

If every corps feels that they COULD beat the corps directly in front of them, and that no unreasonable barriers prevent them from doing it in their eyes and in the eyes of the judges, then what inhibits a corps from rising quickly could be the steadily increasing quality of all the corps over the years (as far as what is being judged).

You're not the first to say this, and maybe it's so, but I've never been able to quite grasp how this process is supposed to work. Is it that all corps are performing, on some imagined absolute scale, five points better than they did in 1980? In which case, what difference does that make to movement within the spread? Or is it that the best corps now have remained as good as ever, but the lower corps have trended up, relative to their "ancestors", in which case if they're closer to the same top than they were before, why can't they crack it more easily? Genuinely musing here, and eager for insight.

[Jeff Ream]

If I understand some of the concerns expressed here correctly, many would much prefer a NEW champion every year, and ideally, over a 10 year period, ten different champions. What changes can be instituted to make this happen? Naturally, of course.

how the judges judge the sheets. the new sheets are wonderful...however, they are still being applied as if they are the old ones

[Jeff Ream]

really? debunked where? I've seen no powerpoints to follow up the one in 2010 that cut them adrift

(that's a lot of quotes, but I was trying to bring the gist of the conversation instead of fragments).

While I think that maybe charlie1223 may be jumping to conclusions a bit, I think at the very least you have to admit that your assertion is based on outdated information. Even the leaked email from the "7" seemed to have quite a bit of different information than what was in the 2010 powerpoints, and at the very least the 2010 powerpoint was shot-down. I see that as a rough-draft idea that has, almost three years later, been changed & refined quite a bit. Maybe you are right, and maybe charlie1223 is right. At this point, we honestly don't know as there have been no official press releases from either "side." We do know that the "7" have directors on DCI's board, and the two organizations are seemingly at the very least working together for now. Time will tell what the full story is, and I agree with you that charlie1223 is indeed making an assumption. But in this situation I don't think it's wise to make assumptions on EITHER side of this argument without all of the facts.

I agree with you to a point. However in reading the demand for power manifesto, i thik one can tell their plan hasn't changed. it's just moving slower than they wanted

[MikeD]

You're not the first to say this, and maybe it's so, but I've never been able to quite grasp how this process is supposed to work. Is it that all corps are performing, on some imagined absolute scale, five points better than they did in 1980? In which case, what difference does that make to movement within the spread? Or is it that the best corps now have remained as good as ever, but the lower corps have trended up, relative to their "ancestors", in which case if they're closer to the same top than they were before, why can't they crack it more easily? Genuinely musing here, and eager for insight.

Well, you have the logjam of the corps in front who remain just as good as ever, or even get better. This past year Crown hit #2 over The Cadets and others, and the Cavies dropped quite a bit, so movement does happen.

[BRASSO]

Thank you, doctor.

'Glad to have helped.. my bill for services rendered to you is in the mail as we speak, Fred.

[N.E. Brigand]

While I think that maybe charlie1223 may be jumping to conclusions a bit, I think at the very least you [Jeff] have to admit that your assertion is based on outdated information. Even the leaked email from the "7" seemed to have quite a bit of different information than what was in the 2010 Powerpoint, and at the very least, the 2010 Powerpoint was shot down. I see that as a rough-draft idea that has, almost three years later, been changed & refined quite a bit.

The 2013 e-mail asked for basically one thing: a controlling vote of a reconstituted DCI board of directors whose decisions could not be overturned by a vote of the full membership (which is what happened in 2010 after the G-7 Powerpoint was presented). In no other respect did it supersede the particulars of the earlier proposal, and it didn't need to: if the G-7 had been granted that control, they could institute any or none of the G-7 proposals as they saw fit. Until the G-7 releases, or someone leaks, a new plan that addresses such points as the future of Open Class, it's more reasonable to assume that they hold the same positions than to assume that they have changed their positions. I agree that we don't absolutely know either way, however.

[BRASSO]

Well, you have the logjam of the corps in front who remain just as good as ever, or even get better. This past year Crown hit #2 over The Cadets and others, and the Cavies dropped quite a bit, so movement does happen.

The movement of snow does reach down to Alabama too, so we can say that snow movement to there " does happen " there in Alabama, so you have a point....... I guess.

[normy diploome]

Given the realities of competitive inertia as stated by more than one poster on DCP, if there is true stagnation in DCI, I note this corresponding coincidence that the judging community has been directed/led/formed by the same triumvirate (Gary Markham, John Philips, and George Oliviero) for a very lo-o-o-ong time. While each is an amazing person, and at least two have sterling credentials beyond the activity, this old timer wonders whether they have been in the job too long for any real shift to occur, even with the supposed changes on the judging sheets and judging perspectives. This comment is not meant to be an attack on the character of any of the three gentlemen. But if we now realize that there may be a worth in tenure limits in government administration and representation, might that also be a benefit in the judging area for a move past stagnation or competitive inertia.? Who selects the judges, educates the judges in philosophy and technique, and assigns them to specific contests and/or sub-captions... It's been this triumvirate for many seasons.

Just thinking aloud. Perhaps this may be a good discussion for its own thread.

[JamMan]

If I take off your oxygen supply at your bedside you will die. If DCI adopted the position of providing " no real service " to the Open Class, you can bet your life the Open Class Corps would be quick to die as well. So there is no misunderstanding here, even the others in DCI saw it this way, as this quest by the G-7 for the DCI " non support " of the Open Class was rejected forthwith at future meetings of the Board and its voting mermbers. Except for 2 Corps Open Class Corps, the G-7 would be happy if these Open Class Corps would simply disppear. I don't see how anyone could conclude otherwise as their actions speak louder than words regarding this, imo.

So if Open Class is paid next to nothing for shows, Open Class minus DCI would still be roughly equal to Open Class. Let's be honest: Open Class thrives on exposure from World Class shows and their own home show. Without DCI, their income doesn't look like it'd be affected by not performing in DCI.

Can you poke a whole in my logic (please?)?

[BRASSO]

So if Open Class is paid next to nothing for shows, Open Class minus DCI would still be roughly equal to Open Class. Let's be honest: Open Class thrives on exposure from World Class shows and their own home show. Without DCI, their income doesn't look like it'd be affected by not performing in DCI.

Can you poke a whole in my logic (please?)?

The short answer is that Open Class Corps come from a wide geographical region literally covering from Coast to Coast, and into Canada. They benefit not so much from their association with the World Class, as they do to the organization of DCI itself. If the elite Corps believe that they need the organization of DCI ( they currently do, as they'd have left after 2011 )then you can be sure that these Open Class corps need DCI even more than they do at this point in time. Though imperfect, DCI provides them needed centralization and economies of scale.... national competition at Championships, needed access to marketing, event advertising, camp info, videos, access to DCI judges, seminar and instruction attendance, rules and regs updates, and 100 other things that they can not get if they were separated from all the national and international branding and umbrella marketing that DCI provides to them, their staff, their marchers,their alums, their fans, etc. If they lost their DCI afiliation they would quickly die, imo. There are simply too few of them now in much too wide a geographical span of miles now to exist on their own without DCI.

Edited February 17, 2013 by BRASSO