Have DCI Standings Actually Stagnated?

[BRASSO]

Yes and no. The G-7 have never explicitly stated that they want the Open Class corps to fail, or that the Open Class corps should have no part in DCI. And BRASSO was corrected in his oft-repeated claim that the G-7 had stated that the Open Class corps provide "no real service" to DCI.

However, what the G-7 did state was that there would be "no real service offered" by DCI to the Open Class corps, although they would be allowed to perform as add-ons at World Class shows. There is a dispute about what that would mean. Some people say that DCI cutting off "service" would include making no show payments (payments which are already pretty small). This notion, if true, could be reasonably interpreted as a future DCI without Open Class corps. You argue instead that it means only that DCI would have no separate Open Class circuit. Maybe. But you shouldn't cite your interpretation of a disputed point as proof that other side's arguments have been "debunked".

If I take off your oxygen supply at your bedside you will die. If DCI adopted the position of providing " no real service " to the Open Class, you can bet your life the Open Class Corps would be quick to die as well. So there is no misunderstanding here, even the others in DCI saw it this way, as this quest by the G-7 for the DCI " non support " of the Open Class was rejected forthwith at future meetings of the Board and its voting mermbers. Except for 2 Corps Open Class Corps, the G-7 would be happy if these Open Class Corps would simply disppear. I don't see how anyone could conclude otherwise as their actions speak louder than words regarding this, imo.

Edited February 15, 2013 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

This has been debunked.

really? debunked where? I've seen no powerpoints to follow up the one in 2010 that cut them adrift

[N.E. Brigand]

I thought that the G7 statements were that in their view the Open Class corps are best served by local/regional circuits that are not a part of DCI (just like the old days!). The Open Class corps in these circuits would be welcome to attend champs, just as it was decades ago. That doesn't mean there would be a world without Open Class corps, just that they would not be part of DCI.

Do those circuits exist now, Mike? Right now, DCI coordinates the schedule, judges, and payouts Open Class corps competition. The G-7 would therefore be telling the Open Class corps to create their own new circuit, right?

And I note that you largely agree with Jeff: he said the G-7 proposed that DCI's "future ... doesn't include OC corps" while you say the OC corps "would not be part of DCI".

Whether the idea is good or bad or even possible is besides the point in what Charlie stated about Jeff's comment.

Eh, what? This is the converstation:

Jeff: "a segment of WC directors have a future vision that doesn't include OC corps"

charlie: "This has been debunked"

N.E.B.: "you shouldn't cite your interpretation of a disputed point as proof that other side's arguments have been 'debunked'"

Who said anything about good or bad? The word "debunked" refers to a claim being shown to be factually untrue. All we have here are two interpretations of the G-7 proposal. Jeff's has not been proven false; charlie just disagrees with it. I would respond similarly if Jeff claimed this his interpretation "debunked" charlie's.

[N.E. Brigand]

OTOH, the idea of stagnation, if true; isn't that just reflective of the idea that the corps that are good tend to remain good, etc.?

Not necessarily. After all, those corps weren't always good, which means that they got better than someone else who may not have "remained good".

[BRASSO]

really? debunked where? I've seen no powerpoints to follow up the one in 2010 that cut them adrift

Absolutely.

While a 2 year memory look back last month had me originally think that the G-7 was stating in their Powerpoint Presentation 2 years ago that the G-7 believed that the Open Class Corps provide " no real serice ", I did go back and look at the original G-7 proposal and saw that they did not make this claim ( and then came back on DCP and acknowldged this ). But a reread of that orginal G-7 Powerpoint Presentation does indeed provide the clear observation that they were calling for the non support, " no real service " from DCI for these Corps, which as you said would " cut them adrift ". When somebody on your job wants to strip away your financial and marketing support, revenue stream, etc it should be pretty clear to all that they want you to flat out..... disappear.

Edited February 15, 2013 by BRASSO

[Fred Windish]

If I understand some of the concerns expressed here correctly, many would much prefer a NEW champion every year, and ideally, over a 10 year period, ten different champions. What changes can be instituted to make this happen? Naturally, of course.

[BRASSO]

If I understand some of the concerns expressed here correctly, many would much prefer a NEW champion every year, and ideally, over a 10 year period, ten different champions. What changes can be instituted to make this happen? Naturally, of course.

The best thing to do is to ask somebody what they'd like to see happen, and respond to THAT, Fred... rather than to suppose in your mind what you think they want and then ask them why they think that way.

Personally, my quest is not for " 10 different champions in 10 years " at all. My quest would be something much simpler... fairness of oppportunity. No more, no less.

I think if we eliminate a 2 tiered competitive system in the World Class Division of DCI as a future beginning point after 2013 season, the rest of the " fairness " will result in the natural order of things taking care of itself regarding more diversity at the top. I also mentioned my suggestion of the implementation of " Finders Fees " as a creative way to provide fairness. That seems to not have much support however both within nor outside of DCI, so we will continue to struggle with ways to provide fairness to a competitive system that is fundamentally stacked bigtime in favor of the entrenched handful of Corps that use threats, extortion on others as a means to maintain that entrenchment at the top. Thats not good. Thats not good at all, imo.

Edited February 15, 2013 by BRASSO

[perc2100]

Jeff Ream, on 14 February 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

DCI however is the World Class corps. So getting them to promote somethingthat could in turn take away from them isn't going to happen, especially since a segment of WC directors have a future vision that doesn't include OC corps

charlie1223, on 15 February 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

This has been debunked.

really? debunked where? I've seen no powerpoints to follow up the one in 2010 that cut them adrift

(that's a lot of quotes, but I was trying to bring the gist of the conversation instead of fragments).

While I think that maybe charlie1223 may be jumping to conclusions a bit, I think at the very least you have to admit that your assertion is based on outdated information. Even the leaked email from the "7" seemed to have quite a bit of different information than what was in the 2010 powerpoints, and at the very least the 2010 powerpoint was shot-down. I see that as a rough-draft idea that has, almost three years later, been changed & refined quite a bit. Maybe you are right, and maybe charlie1223 is right. At this point, we honestly don't know as there have been no official press releases from either "side." We do know that the "7" have directors on DCI's board, and the two organizations are seemingly at the very least working together for now. Time will tell what the full story is, and I agree with you that charlie1223 is indeed making an assumption. But in this situation I don't think it's wise to make assumptions on EITHER side of this argument without all of the facts.

[MikeD]

Not necessarily. After all, those corps weren't always good, which means that they got better than someone else who may not have "remained good".

And if their performance drops their scores will drop, a la Cavies 2012.

Not sure what you are getting at here. My comment was about the idea of 'stagnation'. Unless the corps are being scored incorrectly there is no such thing.

[Fred Windish]

The best thing to do is to ask somebody what they'd like to see happen, and respond to THAT, Fred... rather than to suppose in your mind what you think they want and then ask them why they think that way.

Thank you, doctor.