TOC/G7 Related Discussion

[Daave]

This fight is primarily about one thing: The Seven do not any longer want to play under the conditions where their futures are dictated to them by the other members of the collective.

Even in the board room and in all negotiations, the best way to get someone down off their high horse is to give them a ladder.

God.

Then, they came down off of the ladder and started fashioning the ladder into weapons to begin beating the drums of change again.

They never stopped wanting to play under any conditions other than their vision.

Bump membership to 200 and no limitations on instrumentation (read woodwinds). It's coming.

Will they be duped again?

How many times must one be beat over the head with a ladder that was offered, before you realize you're being hit?

[Bruckner8]

Another observation (Sorry, I just interject stuff, instead of responding to specific posts): Almost every "win" from a marketing standpoint is based on individuals or small groups. The hot dog contest has a primal element, and has a clear winner. Even pro sports teams market their STARS, not their teams. Even D-Ray's marketing suggestions (usually links to videos) have only one performer, and only a small group. The only large-group I can think of is Orchestra, and we all know how that's going. Even Orchestra concerts ALWAYS include a soloist of some kind, and they hope people stick around for the "real music."

So the two new entities under DCI's purview are a good first step, but will it really make more people come to the large-group drum corps show?

Drum Corps challenges the member and the audience alike. It makes you have to "figure it out" (esp in these days of Artsy-Fartsy shows, with guard/visual staffs running the asylum). Live orchestra music is the same: It challenges the listener to "look for" subtlety, for individual artistry, and to understand the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Seriously, this is a cultural issue more than a DCI issue. I don't think there's really any turning back, unless America decides that art, music, expression, team are AT LEAST as important as the 3 Rs. instead, we have garage bands, American Idol (and all variants), individual athletic prowess, hot dog contests, lol, w.t.f.e.

[Jeff Ream]

That's almost exactly my experience too. Almost no one is interested in going back.

DCI and drum corps people are a peculiar bunch. If they were a for-profit business, I would guess none of the drum corps would survive. What could be going on here?

DCI decision makers are unaware that the return rate for newbies is close to zero. (inexcusible but possible)

DCI decision makers are fully aware but don't care. . Personally this has been my working theory for years. Arguing with their customers over what their customers should want. Doesn't get you very far.

DCI decision makers are fully aware, do care, but can't figure out how to change it. This is also possible.

DCI decision makers and corps director are so darn busy trying to keep up with the Joneses that they don't notice what's going on around them beyond their personal day to day grind. Perhaps in this case you would hope some of them would at least be self-aware of this, and put someone out there to be their eyes and ears.

I think some care. I think some don't. And the problem is you need consensus for them to do the marketing truly needed. But given how some want to chop expenses, not add more, they'll never know.

[Jeff Ream]

I'm fine with that.... and setting up a Commissioner of Drum Corps. :-)

here is where we may possibly agree.

the DCI bylaws need to be rewritten to give the director more power, and less in the hands of the corps. Maybe just line item veto, or the power to over rule some proposals put out and voted on by the corps. Honestly, i think if this had been there all along, thingswould be in better shape.

Dan gets a bum rap in many cases....people throw #### at his feet he has no control over. All he can do is try to execute the convoluted #### thrown at him by the corps, of which you have 2 factions. You have the 7 plus one of the non 7 who basically worships at their feet, and the other 14.

[Jeff Ream]

In NCAA, participants are all pretty much the same age. In DCI, it is not the case.

Well, they 7 make up all but 1 of the groups in existence who have won DCI (and the only other one that has, won once... years before any kid participating now was even born).

Only 2 non-G7 corps have placed in the top 5 in the past 15 years (2 times each for Boston and Glassmen), with the last time being 12 years ago.

It's quite obvious to an objective observer where the gravity of the brand is really centered.

Let's say some corps break off and form a new circuit and these end up being the G7 plus a few random others. What is the value left in the DCI brand? Winning a DCI championship then would be sort of hollow for a kid... would not have even close to the same meaning, and the brand would be tarnished.

funny thing. the 20th place corps was in the top 7 of souvie sales last year.

[Jeff Ream]

I'm usually a fan of Daniel Ray's vision (not sure if that's his real name), but ever since he introduced the number 18 for a DCI circuit, I've wondered "How is that any different than today?" I mean, DCI is almost down to that number anyway, and there's not much difference between 18th and 19th place, right? I'm not sure how that would change anything.

DCI is a brand only in the sense that it's the only game in town; it's synonymous with Drum Corps. Kids under age 16 use them interchangably, like "Someday, I want to march DCI." They don't even mention the corps name, lol, they just know that "Marching DCI would be awesome!" That is a good thing, IMO. The kids already know the "strata" exists; they know they have almost no shot at making the top 6 at such a young age (even though many try).

So that brand is already established. IMO, each corps is its own brand as well. The question is: Can each brand of drum corps attract and retain the most talented members, staff and designers? The Top Six has also become a "Brand" of sorts.

My point is this: All of the strata exists already, and everyone knows it. I'm not sure why the G7 would want to "Make it official" unless they really think they can make A LOT (emphasis on A LOT) more money or change the entire activity into something else...both of which are valid goals, BTW. If they want to create an entirely new brand, so be it. I'd be interested to see what they can do! But holding DCI hostage is what ticks me off, lol.

The thing is.....I don't see how the 7 will create something that will draw that much extra in revenue in.

I'd love for DCI to say "ok, you want your shows...you run them. Everything is on you. income, expenses, everything".

Given we haven't seen any real numbers for how TOC shows did, my hunch is it didn't make nearly as much as they thought it would

[Jeff Ream]

If you're supposedly a major league team, yet you routinely lose to what are supposed to be minor league teams, you're not really a major league team. Either you need to step up your game, or be honest about your abilities and compete at the appropriate level.

A more focused, more competitive top division would be helpful in defining the product for potential sponsors, which would serve to increase the overall amount of money available to the activity. You seem to want to cut funds to the corps, rather than growing additional funds through improved communications, product development, and marketing techniques, but I'll guarantee you that your 'business philosophy', while useful as a temporary measure in recessions, is not a successful concept in the long term. The problem isn't overspending at the corps level; it's under-performance at the DCI level.

DCI, as an organization, needs to have a gut check of their member corps, and find out if they want to continue muddling along or whether they're ready to get aggressive about growing their market, even if it would require a major realignment, and being willing to change the programming and competition philosophy to improve the overall appeal. But right now there doesn't seem to be anyone at the DCI level who's willing to sit the corps down and start that process. If Dan Acheson doesn't feel confident enough of his abilities to be the guy who leads, than it would seem to be incumbent on him to acknowledge as much, and leave room for the Directors to hire someone else who will.

If it helps, I guarantee you that both Gibbs and Blenski would be unhappy with the direction that DCI needs to take in order to grow, for completely different reasons. Gibbs would hate the demands to make the product more sellable and less WGI, Blenski would hate hearing that he'd have to start playing to win or work at a different level.

But plodding along, the way they are now, is not really an option. If you want to save DCI, you're going to have to care about making it bigger and better, not more of the same.

ya know, the Florida Marlins had a huge payroll last year. They lost to teams that were essentially minor leage all year long. Hell, they beat the Phillies a bunch, and they had one of the top payrolls in baseball.

Over the years you can see tons of examples of tems that on paper should have been the best, but get their ##### handed to them. Look at the NY Jets ( sorry Fran)

[Slingerland]

Oh, well, indeed, because your argument is CRAP and your description of the events and, ergo, the POINT of what happened, is revisionist fiction, so you bail out with the hard-hitting, dynamic phrase of "DCI still needs a strong central voice..", and you seem to continue to not grasp the fact that they DO have a strong central voice IN THE O-15.

In other words, DCI is just fine, they don't need to do anything, and the mix that exists now is sufficient.

Because if you want to say that the O15 approach - don't change anything to make the product better, don't force us to step up our games - is a viable solution, then that's what you've proposed. Status quo.

15,000 paid at Finals, no television deal, no major sponsorships, no hope of making drum corps anything better or bigger than it is now. Whew, that was hard.

At the lowest competitive tiers, drum corps is perceived as marching band. Good marching band, but notthing that can't be seen in any number of community bands in high schools across the country. That's fine; those drum corps are really there to teach their members how to play the game, not to compete to win. That's an excellent reason to exist, and it should be supported by everyone - but it isn't saying that those teaching corps are the corps that the activity wants to showcase to a wider audience, simply because it wouldn't necessarily do much to improve the public's perception of what too many still see as "marching band.'

Anyway, I suspect no one's minds are going to be changed by anything here, so there's probably not much point going further with this discussion. IF DCI limps through another year or two with no significant improvement in reach or revenue, even those at the bottom will start to realize that status quo isn't going to cut it, and maybe they'll be ready to try something really radical with the potential at their fingertips. But it's going to take SOMEone in the mix to step up and say "here's a direction for actual, rapid, sizable growth" not "if we all spend $1 less a month on copying, we can survive another day."

Edited March 18, 2013 by Slingerland

[danielray]

(Regiment/BD Entertainment). .. (SVC/Regiment) ... (Cavaliers/SCV) ,.. (SCV/Cavaliers), ... (Crown/BD/Regiment/SCV) ... (Cavaliers/Bluecoats)...

You're basically saying that drum corps is pretty much inbred.

[danielray]

here is where we may possibly agree.

the DCI bylaws need to be rewritten to give the director more power, and less in the hands of the corps. Maybe just line item veto, or the power to over rule some proposals put out and voted on by the corps. Honestly, i think if this had been there all along, thingswould be in better shape.

Bylaws don't need to be rewritten... that is silly, does absolutely nothing to solve the problem.

Brand needs to be transfered to a new for-profit entity that runs things. Drum corps as a non-profit entity makes little sense and the mentality that what DCI does is both noble and interesting is part of the problem. It should care only about money. Period. Anything else is noise.

Dan gets a bum rap in many cases....people throw #### at his feet he has no control over. All he can do is try to execute the convoluted #### thrown at him by the corps, of which you have 2 factions. You have the 7 plus one of the non 7 who basically worships at their feet, and the other 14.

If you are a CEO.... you have one faction, you. Otherwise, you are simply a crossing guard, trying to make sure no one gets hurt.