Jeff Ream Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 There's a reason show attendance has been declining year after year since the early 80's peak. Music has been placed on the back burner by the judges who dictate the direction of DCI. It is no longer, the corps muscial interpretations that grab the attention of the people in the stands. Their attention now is focused on the circus like performances, and the one hidden moment buried in the production, that might get noticed or missed all together. It kindof reminds me of the people who spin plates, constantly running back and forth trying to keep them all going at the same time. I'm glad this vision hasn't taken over our orchestra's who's music survives on its own without the need for theatrics to make it work. I guess I'm old school since I'd much rather have the visuals support the music and not the other way around. thecorps dictate the direction of DCI, not the judges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 ... the corps dictate the direction of DCI, not the judges Jeff, I agree with you that the corps dictate the direction not the judges; that can be seen in the divisiveness between the G7 and the rest of the corps. That said, the judges certainly are supporting the direction of the G7 by constantly placing them in the top 7 (or 8); this is either because the G7 really are that much better than all other corps (which bolsters the G7 belief that 'they' are the real show), or the judges agree with the G7 artistic philosophy (which bolsters the G7 in their direction course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowtron Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Jeff, I agree with you that the corps dictate the direction not the judges; that can be seen in the divisiveness between the G7 and the rest of the corps. That said, the judges certainly are supporting the direction of the G7 by constantly placing them in the top 7 (or 8); this is either because the G7 really are that much better than all other corps (which bolsters the G7 belief that 'they' are the real show), or the judges agree with the G7 artistic philosophy (which bolsters the G7 in their direction course). Blue Stars were TOC and they certainly didn't get favorable treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Blue Stars were TOC and they certainly didn't get favorable treatment. I get what you are saying but that is currently a non-issue. The 2013 version of ToC (ie the renamed MiM) is not the older version of the ToC and not based on placement, titles, or any factor other than being a member of the G7; the Blue Stars (and Boston for that matter) are not part of the G7; therefore they are not a member of the newer version of the ToC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Jeff, I agree with you that the corps dictate the direction not the judges; that can be seen in the divisiveness between the G7 and the rest of the corps. That said, the judges certainly are supporting the direction of the G7 by constantly placing them in the top 7 (or 8); this is either because the G7 really are that much better than all other corps (which bolsters the G7 belief that 'they' are the real show), or the judges agree with the G7 artistic philosophy (which bolsters the G7 in their direction course). wrong. the judges support the criteria on the sheets which is approved by a majority of the corps in DCI, 7 or 15. If you think about it, not all of the 7 have been ultra successful in recent times. Phantom had that disastrous 2009 show, Cavies were 8th last year and could be this year...not all that long ago Crown wasn't in finals...Bluecoats haven't even been top 6 for the last 10 years. I know you hate the 7 for many good reasons, but sometimes you stretch way too far trying to pin everything on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 (edited) wrong. the judges support the criteria on the sheets which is approved by a majority of the corps in DCI, 7 or 15. If you think about it, not all of the 7 have been ultra successful in recent times. Phantom had that disastrous 2009 show, Cavies were 8th last year and could be this year...not all that long ago Crown wasn't in finals...Bluecoats haven't even been top 6 for the last 10 years. I know you hate the 7 for many good reasons, but sometimes you stretch way too far trying to pin everything on them. Ehhhhhhhhh.... we are talking the G7, not G6, so that throws out your Bluecoats reference of placing 7th... and with the exception of a few slips by the Cavies and Regiment and a few pushes by Boston (who turned down the Hop/Gibbs offer), along with the Scouts (who also turned down the Hop/Gibbs offer) and Star (which moved away from DCI), five of the G7 have 'all' of the DCI titles; and the entire G7 have the highest average finishes of 'all' corps in modern DCI. This, combined with your position that the judges are impartial and going just by the sheets, directly supports the position that the G7 really are that much better than all other corps (which thus bolsters the G7 belief that 'they', the G7, are the real show). Edited August 7, 2013 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Ehhhhhhhhh.... we are talking the G7, not G6, so that throws out your Bluecoats reference of placing 7th... and with the exception of a few slips by the Cavies and Regiment and a few pushes by Boston (who turned down the Hop/Gibbs offer), along with the Scouts (who also turned down the Hop/Gibbs offer) and Star (which moved away from DCI), five of the G7 have 'all' of the DCI titles; and the entire G7 have the highest average finishes of 'all' corps in modern DCI. This, combined with your position that the judges are impartial and going just by the sheets, directly supports the position that the G7 really are that much better than all other corps (which thus bolsters the G7 belief that 'they', the G7, are the real show). Stu, Look...I dislike the whole G7 thing. But let's be realistic here. Several of them are and have been the best corps in DCI for decades. You can't argue that fact. They were since the craziness began in 2010, they were when Pesceone ran the ship etc. I'm sorry as much as I may love some of the lower placing corps, they placed low for a reason. The push for more audience friendly sheets and the change came from Cesario, not the top dogs. And, the top dogs are the masters of taking what they do and adapting it to the sheets. if the 7 pushed for those sheets 2 years ago and the non 7 hated them, they wouldn't have been passed. I know a few of the judges, and I can guaran-####-tee you they don't base their number on the uniform. There may be some that do, but it's more like a thing for one corps, as opposed to having a thing for several corps. Now, IMO, just because they score well doesn't equate being the whole show. I can guarantee you one top dog has been hearing that since 2008. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 (edited) Stu, Look...I dislike the whole G7 thing. But let's be realistic here. Several of them are and have been the best corps in DCI for decades. You can't argue that fact. They were since the craziness began in 2010, they were when Pesceone ran the ship etc. I'm sorry as much as I may love some of the lower placing corps, they placed low for a reason. The push for more audience friendly sheets and the change came from Cesario, not the top dogs. And, the top dogs are the masters of taking what they do and adapting it to the sheets. if the 7 pushed for those sheets 2 years ago and the non 7 hated them, they wouldn't have been passed. I know a few of the judges, and I can guaran-####-tee you they don't base their number on the uniform. There may be some that do, but it's more like a thing for one corps, as opposed to having a thing for several corps. Now, IMO, just because they score well doesn't equate being the whole show. I can guarantee you one top dog has been hearing that since 2008. Yes; taking all emotion out of the equation all of the things you mentioned appear to be Facts (however I somewhat disagree that what the non G7 and Cesario actually meant with the revamped sheets was to greatly support GE a la Dada). But if what you say is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt you, we have to realize that these Facts thus lend fodder to the Hop/Gibbs belief that they, the G7, are 'the show'. And if as you contend there is no philosophical bias bent on the judges part, or political gaming by the judging community to keep the G7 in DCI and not split out, there can be no other conclusion than the G7 are so d**n good that they really are 'the show', they have been 'the show', and unless things drastically change with other corps, they will continue to be 'the show' Edited August 7, 2013 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Yes; taking all emotion out of the equation all of the things you mentioned appear to be Facts (however I somewhat disagree that what the non G7 and Cesario actually meant with the revamped sheets was to greatly support GE a la Dada). But if what you say is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt you, we have to realize that these Facts thus lend fodder to the Hop/Gibbs belief that they, the G7, are 'the show'. And if as you contend there is no philosophical bias bent on the judges part, or political gaming by the judging community to keep the G7 in DCI and not split out, there can be no other conclusion than the G7 are so d**n good that they really are 'the show', they have been 'the show', and unless things drastically change with other corps, they will continue to be 'the show' Stu, We have discussed on here in a zillion threads that entertainment value and scores do not necessarily go hand in hand. Look, as a fan, I hated Dada. Bored me to tears. But I understand why it won. They ####### performed the #### out of it. it was designed to max out the sheets, they performed it and it did. But I just sat through all but Academy last weekend. And I can tell you entertainment value and scores are not viewed the same...and this is, IMO, the one factor the 7 refuse to get. of the 7, I liked 3 shows. Like actually stood up during and for more than to stretch out my 6'3, 230 pound frame when they were done. Based onw hat i saw around the stadium, i was far from alone. However, I also had that reaction to shows like Madison, Blue Knights, Spirit, Crossmen, Troopers......corps not scoring up there. Thats what many in the 7 don't get. the BD freaks can cry about ABBD, hatred etc.....many fans just do not like it. Sure, in any sport, the top teams get more fans in the seats....look at the Phillies. selling out as they won...now look at CBP when they aren't. We're America ######, we support front runners......but in DCI's case, when you have some shows at the top not being loved, those corps still get their share of the $$ because they're there regardless if people like them or not. When you fill out your order form for tickets, you can't say " i want my money to go to just these corps"....it doesn't work that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Blue Stars were TOC and they certainly didn't get favorable treatment. Blue Stars (and Boston) were only in the TOC because the the 2011/2012 TOC was a compromise between the G7 and DCI, and DCI invited the top 8 to be a part of it. This year, the G7 pushed back and the TOC almost did not happen (by the same name anyway) but they compromised again, only this time with the TOC being just the G7, and adding an additional TOC show to the schedule. Expect more "compromises" in the next year or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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