A few thoughts on DCI then, now, & future...

[BRASSO]

Funny thing is as you or we age many of us will believe ( like in most things in life ) That we were the last true signs of our activity, that we had the best of the best, that today can't compare but what many seem to forget is that time does march on( pun..lol )

There were many who came before us who paved the way to todays drum corps, if we like the direction or not and there will be others that will take what has been done now and run with it and do it their way.

Major League Baseball doesn't even allow the innovation of the aluminum bat over the 150 year old wooden Louisville Slugger. There has been the introduction of Performance Enhancing Stimulants to make players bigger, better, stronger. But MLB will suspend you ( and even threaten to ban you ) if you use Performance Enhancing stimulants. " Time marches on " but there is no huge devide in MLB ( or soccer, or lacrosse, or football, etc ) between the older fans and the younger fans. While we do observe SOME of the older fans in these sports complaining about the players of today compared to BITD, we rarely see the older sports fans walking away from the sport in droves, as the game no longer looks the same to them becuse of all the wholesale transformational ( or radical if one is disposed to call it ) changes in the sports. All these sports since the 70's have undergone incredible attendance growths despite only cosmetic changes the last 35 years. These sports are primarily known for the absence of changes over the years, despite technological improvements that would allow substantive changes if these sports officials and owners desired to include them. By contrast, DCI Drum Corps has undergone more changes the last 35 yeaars than just about any other competitive sport one can think of. The overall talent level is assumed to be much better too now in Drum Corps. Corps are bigger and more equipped than ever. Despite the welcoming of 35 years of " change ", the number of people that will see the Finals Championships this Saturday live will be less than half that saw it live in 1980. DCI drum Corps was always a very small niche activity. But its even smaller now. If anyone wants to chime in as to why DCI Drum Corps is smaller now than it was in 1980, I'd be happy to listen those reasons why you believe it to be so, despite the increased alleged improved talent influx during this time frame.

Edited August 8, 2013 by BRASSO

[BRASSO]

what many seem to forget is that time does march on( pun..lol )

There were many who came before us who paved the way to todays drum corps, if we like the direction or not and there will be others that will take what has been done now and run with it and do it their way.

While this SOUNDS nice, ie " others will take what has been done now and run with it and do it their way", it seems like you are not quite aware for some reason of the precarious financial situation that DCI Drum Corps finds itself in at present. If further missteps, (couched as " changes " in some quarters) are made, there will be no " running with what others have done ". It will be over. You seem to just assume that DCI Drum Corps is assured a stable and bright future based upon the " changes " it has embraced both on and off the field over the years. How you arrive at such confidence is a bit mysterfying to me however. I hope you're right about the bright future. But Economics and Finance are cold hard reality whose laws are immutable no matter how one wishes the Math that is found in them would just go away.

Edited August 8, 2013 by BRASSO

[GUARDLING]

While this SOUNDS nice, ie " others will take what has been done now and run with it and do it their way", it seems like you are not quite aware for some reason of the precarious financial situation that DCI Drum Corps finds itself in at present. If further missteps, (couched as " changes " in some quarters) are made, there will be no " running with what others have done ". It will over. You seem to just assume that DCI Drum Corps is assured a stable and bright future based upon the " changes " it has embraced both on and off the field over the years. How you arrive at such confidence is a bit mysterfying to me however.

im very aware actually, I never said any of what you just implied BUT I will say that all I meant was , right decisions or not, if it servives or not. There has been as you called it " missteps " all through the activity ( as in most things in life )since the beginning and Im sure will continue as long as it lasts. People will run with the activity as many have before. Now if that means it flourishes or doesn't can be another story............jmo

Edited August 8, 2013 by GUARDLING

[GUARDLING]

Major League Baseball doesn't even allow the innovation of the aluminum bat over the 150 year old wooden Louisville Slugger. There has been the introduction of Performance Enhancing Stimulants to make players bigger, better, stronger. But MLB will suspend you ( and even threaten to ban you ) if you use Performance Enhancing stimulants. " Time marches on " but there is no huge devide in MLB ( or soccer, or lacrosse, or football, etc ) between the older fans and the younger fans. While we do observe SOME of the older fans in these sports complaining about the players of today compared to BITD, we rarely see the older sports fans walking away from the sport in droves, as the game no longer looks the same to them becuse of all the wholesale transformational ( or radical if one is disposed to call it ) changes in the sports. All these sports since the 70's have undergone incredible attendance growths despite only cosmetic changes the last 35 years. These sports are primarily known for the absence of changes over the years, despite technological improvements that would allow substantive changes if these sports officials and owners desired to include them. By contrast, DCI Drum Corps has undergone more changes the last 35 yeaars than just about any other competitive sport one can think of. The overall talent level is assumed to be much better too now in Drum Corps. Corps are bigger and more equipped than ever. Despite the welcoming of 35 years of " change ", the number of people that will see the Finals Championships this Saturday live will be less than half that saw it live in 1980. DCI drum Corps was always a very small niche activity. But its even smaller now. If anyone wants to chime in as to why DCI Drum Corps is smaller now than it was in 1980, I'd be happy to listen those reasons why you believe it to be so, despite the increased alleged improved talent influx during this time frame.

why drum corps is smaller now then BITD has been discussed time and time again..there are several arguments for sure and most all valid from design choices, to maybe plain and simple the activity doesnt serve the kid or audience it did bitd

[soccerguy315]

My son and I went to our first ever DCI event this year (Allentown) and we were completely blown away with the awesomeness of it. Beforehand, I thought that would get sick of "marching band" music (I know they're not marching bands) but we sat through 2 days with 10-12 groups each day and at the end of it, I wanted more. I have never been more entertained by a show than I was by what I saw and heard at Allentown. I don't have a history with DCI so I can't comment about the changes that have happened but I know what they're putting out now is absolutely terrific. They people around me in the stands seemed to enjoy it quite a bit too.

And in any case, if you don't like what you're seeing: don't complain loudly during the performances!!! No one came to hear your negative comments, we came to watch the show! (we had a loud guy behind us on Saturday complaining nonstop during performances about what he didn't like - and he didn't like a LOT of things).

thanks for posting your thoughts from your first drum corps show... if you are in any way into this sort of stuff, your first drum corps show definitely blows you away. I think most people remember their first show as a great memory. Thanks for sharing yours.

[Stu]

Stu,

We have discussed on here in a zillion threads that entertainment value and scores do not necessarily go hand in hand. Look, as a fan, I hated Dada. Bored me to tears. But I understand why it won. They ####### performed the #### out of it. it was designed to max out the sheets, they performed it and it did.

But I just sat through all but Academy last weekend. And I can tell you entertainment value and scores are not viewed the same...and this is, IMO, the one factor the 7 refuse to get. of the 7, I liked 3 shows. Like actually stood up during and for more than to stretch out my 6'3, 230 pound frame when they were done. Based onw hat i saw around the stadium, i was far from alone.

However, I also had that reaction to shows like Madison, Blue Knights, Spirit, Crossmen, Troopers......corps not scoring up there. Thats what many in the 7 don't get. the BD freaks can cry about ABBD, hatred etc.....many fans just do not like it.

Sure, in any sport, the top teams get more fans in the seats....look at the Phillies. selling out as they won...now look at CBP when they aren't. We're America ######, we support front runners......but in DCI's case, when you have some shows at the top not being loved, those corps still get their share of the $$ because they're there regardless if people like them or not. When you fill out your order form for tickets, you can't say " i want my money to go to just these corps"....it doesn't work that way.

I agree with you when it comes to shear execution; the Devils and some other G7 flat max out that aspect. But apparently the GE portion of the revamped sheets did not accomplish what the non-G7 and Cesario desired because the GE judges still mainly reward Surreal Abstract over Concrete Rational, they still tend to reward Esoteric Intellectual over Straightforward Enjoyment. GE is not supposed to be about execution, or even supposed to be about effective transmission of intellectualism; GE is supposed to be about effective transmission of raw emotion and how well the performance brought out that raw emotion in those watching (and listening). In the world of entertainment, which DCI is in contrary to what ivory tower intellectuals say, the GE of Scouts Empire should flat wipe the floor with the GE of the Devils Dada as long as the raw power of Empire brought the fans to wild emotional euphoria and Dada produced glorified golf claps. So, either there is still a problem with the GE portion of the sheets, 'or' as I contend most of the GE judges are mainly educationally and philosophically geared and bent toward rewarding intellectual didactic culture over downright raw entertainment.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Stu

[Stu]

Major League Baseball doesn't even allow the innovation of the aluminum bat over the 150 year old wooden Louisville Slugger. There has been the introduction of Performance Enhancing Stimulants to make players bigger, better, stronger. But MLB will suspend you ( and even threaten to ban you ) if you use Performance Enhancing stimulants. " Time marches on " but there is no huge devide in MLB ( or soccer, or lacrosse, or football, etc ) between the older fans and the younger fans. While we do observe SOME of the older fans in these sports complaining about the players of today compared to BITD, we rarely see the older sports fans walking away from the sport in droves, as the game no longer looks the same to them becuse of all the wholesale transformational ( or radical if one is disposed to call it ) changes in the sports. All these sports since the 70's have undergone incredible attendance growths despite only cosmetic changes the last 35 years. These sports are primarily known for the absence of changes over the years, despite technological improvements that would allow substantive changes if these sports officials and owners desired to include them. By contrast, DCI Drum Corps has undergone more changes the last 35 yeaars than just about any other competitive sport one can think of. The overall talent level is assumed to be much better too now in Drum Corps. Corps are bigger and more equipped than ever. Despite the welcoming of 35 years of " change ", the number of people that will see the Finals Championships this Saturday live will be less than half that saw it live in 1980. DCI drum Corps was always a very small niche activity. But its even smaller now. If anyone wants to chime in as to why DCI Drum Corps is smaller now than it was in 1980, I'd be happy to listen those reasons why you believe it to be so, despite the increased alleged improved talent influx during this time frame.

This is because in objective sports on any given day the last place team can knock a top team out of the playoffs; the bottom seeded team can win the gold medal. That unknown anticipation of excitement keeps the game interesting over the years. However, DCI is not an objective sport it is a subjective competition. And when that subjective aspect becomes skewed over the years through stylistic changes, intellectual changes, progressing the art form, etc... the older audience may grow tired, weary, skeptical, and eventually disinterested. And if a newer audience is not recruited to replace the older audience things begin to wain.

[Jeff Ream]

I agree with you when it comes to shear execution; the Devils and some other G7 flat max out that aspect. But apparently the GE portion of the revamped sheets did not accomplish what the non-G7 and Cesario desired because the GE judges still mainly reward Surreal Abstract over Concrete Rational, they still tend to reward Esoteric Intellectual over Straightforward Enjoyment. GE is not supposed to be about execution, or even supposed to be about effective transmission of intellectualism; GE is supposed to be about effective transmission of raw emotion and how well the performance brought out that raw emotion in those watching (and listening). In the world of entertainment, which DCI is in contrary to what ivory tower intellectuals say, the GE of Scouts Empire should flat wipe the floor with the GE of the Devils Dada as long as the raw power of Empire brought the fans to wild emotional euphoria and Dada produced glorified golf claps. So, either there is still a problem with the GE portion of the sheets, 'or' as I contend most of the GE judges are mainly educationally and philosophically geared and bent toward rewarding intellectual didactic culture over downright raw entertainment.

I'll agree to a point on the revamped GE sheet. IMO, to truly be effective, you need to hit on all parts of the triad of effect, not just heavily go for the intellectual third. If that were addressed, I think it would be perfect. However...look at shows below 7. They rely more on intellectual too! so again it's NOT just the 7.

The triad of effect is the intellectual, the aesthetic and the emotional. The emotional is often confused as the inducement of airborn small children...and that's not accurate. sadness, anger...they are emotions too.

Question...have you ever judged effect or attended a seminar about how effect is to be judged? Ever seen the new GE sheets? if you have, I'm really surprised in your narro view of the effect caption

[Stu]

I'll agree to a point on the revamped GE sheet. IMO, to truly be effective, you need to hit on all parts of the triad of effect, not just heavily go for the intellectual third. If that were addressed, I think it would be perfect. However...look at shows below 7. They rely more on intellectual too! so again it's NOT just the 7.

The triad of effect is the intellectual, the aesthetic and the emotional. The emotional is often confused as the inducement of airborn small children...and that's not accurate. sadness, anger...they are emotions too.

As it applies to the corps scoring below the G7 designing to the intellectual side, my take on that is they see the top corps being heavily rewarded on that intellectual aspect while corps going after raw emotion are not rewarded; therefore their show designs are emulative 'reaction' to what is being rewarded above them in an attempt to reach that level. And since that esoteric intellectualism is being heavily rewarded I would not put it past the Devils to take a chance and go even way past Dada in the future (see my response to your question below).

Question...have you ever judged effect or attended a seminar about how effect is to be judged? Ever seen the new GE sheets? if you have, I'm really surprised in your narrow view of the effect caption

I have not seen the new DCI sheets but I have judged GE and other captions at many band and indoor competitions; and I have complied with those sheets (many of which vary in definition of GE). I agree that GE is mainly about the effectiveness the show performance has on transmitting the triad; however I cannot get myself to reward a transmission of 'all' aspects available to the human species (even if they are done correctly). For example, a number of years ago I judged Music GE at a non-circuit affiliated contest in which the title of a unit's show was Modern Art; and yes the ensemble did present an arrangement of Cage's 4:33 (I kid you not). It did not last the full 4:33 but did go long enough to garner what Cage intended. I made a comment that while music is a collection of both sound and silence, and silence as well as non-movement certainly is an effective emotional musical tool, I just could not reward their 'performance' of this Cage piece even though they presented it in the manner Cage intended. Why? Because within the realm of marching music competitions there has to be a healthy balance between the intellectual artistic education side with the reason why paying audiences are there in the first place (to be moved by the 'musical' emotions of happiness, sadness, elation, and anger not there to receive an intellectual artistic education).

[chasgroh]

The average age of a DCI judge is approx 60. The average age of some of the top tier show designers is approx. the same age of 55-60. I believe that these same faces we've had designing shows for the same judges that have judged their friends that design these shows for in some cases the last 40 years will slowly but surely give way to another generation of show designers and judges that will judge their shows. Things change. And what is produced in show designs and judged as superior in show design may be quite different then than what is rewarded today.Keep in mind only about 4-5 show designers of the top tier Corps drive the activity, and to be to be rewarded by a very few judges... all of whom have known one another since before any of the current MM's were even born. So the key drivers of the activity are really getting long in the tooth now, and soon we'll see retirements and with this fresh replacements. Then we'l see a fresher perspective and fresher outlook on what shall be rewarded and what less so. Thats how I see this evolving over the next decade, anyway, ie retirements.

...makes sense. My original take, after reading the OP, was that *your* GE might not be *my* GE...and numerous OTHER permutations defined with pronouns. 'Course, I've weathered all the storms since I marched, and taught, in the 60's, and I've let alot of the major schisms (2 valve,3 valve, Bb, keyboards,etc) just kinda wash over me...because my bottom line, the kids/performers, hasn't changed at all. Adjudication drives the activity, much of the criteria used by the judging community is formulated by task forces made up of staffers, or even by director (and thereby DCI itself) input. It's inbred, and, like you say Brasso, should continue to reshape as people come and go. Trick is to keep loving the gig, not necessarily what the gig does.