G vs B-flat Experiment

[BigW]

Maybe.

I've hashed out the theory/acoustics about the instruments with some thoughtful people on the Brass Forum.

The one overriding thing about the issue is not necessarily the key of the horn. In theory, all things being equal there are certain advantages for each, etc, but those things are not equal for the most part.

The quality of the instrument and mouthpiece combination trumps what key it is. More decibels are not necessarily "good" if the tone quality is poor.

I can tell you my Yamaha 321S is a far superior instrument in terms of response and ability to generate musicality then a top end Kanstul, and definitely a far better instrument than my Piston-Rotor Ultratone. Even at it's best, the Ultratone's sound is pretty piercing.

Finally, training. Empire's horns are still in G and very well trained individuals. You might be able to tell the difference, yes, but the quality or musicianship is excellent, and that's the overriding issue there with them. US Navy fighter pilots have some kind of saying something like this:

"A well-trained driver in a Prius can beat Gomer Pyle in a Hot Rod". Same applies with brass instruments.

[camel lips]

It will basically be for fun. I know there are many variables, but let's just see how loud one group is compared to another when the primary difference is G vs b flat.

This was done back in 2006. Someone brought one of those sound decible meters to finals. There is a record somewhere on DCP of the recordings.

As no surprise the G bugle corps were by far the loudest of the night registering much higher decibles than the multi Key corps. The only corps on multi key that even came close was Reading.

[Kamarag]

This was done back in 2006. Someone brought one of those sound decible meters to finals. There is a record somewhere on DCP of the recordings.

As no surprise the G bugle corps were by far the loudest of the night registering much higher decibles than the multi Key corps. The only corps on multi key that even came close was Reading.

At the Scranton show the other night, Statesmen were on G horns. They were certainly loud, but Hawthorne and Reading were louder.

Of course, that and five bucks will get you a cup of coffee :)

[ScoutMello]

Maybe.

I've hashed out the theory/acoustics about the instruments with some thoughtful people on the Brass Forum.

The one overriding thing about the issue is not necessarily the key of the horn. In theory, all things being equal there are certain advantages for each, etc, but those things are not equal for the most part.

The quality of the instrument and mouthpiece combination trumps what key it is. More decibels are not necessarily "good" if the tone quality is poor.

I can tell you my Yamaha 321S is a far superior instrument in terms of response and ability to generate musicality then a top end Kanstul, and definitely a far better instrument than my Piston-Rotor Ultratone. Even at it's best, the Ultratone's sound is pretty piercing.

Finally, training. Empire's horns are still in G and very well trained individuals. You might be able to tell the difference, yes, but the quality or musicianship is excellent, and that's the overriding issue there with them. US Navy fighter pilots have some kind of saying something like this:

"A well-trained driver in a Prius can beat Gomer Pyle in a Hot Rod". Same applies with brass instruments. :satisfied:/>

All of this. Plus at the end of the day it's totally irrelevant. There are a lot of logistical and practical reasons for mixed key brass that G bugles have no answer to.

[JimF-LowBari]

I can tell you my Yamaha 321S is a far superior instrument in terms of response and ability to generate musicality then a top end Kanstul, and definitely a far better instrument than my Piston-Rotor Ultratone. Even at it's best, the Ultratone's sound is pretty piercing.

:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

"A well-trained driver in a Prius can beat Gomer Pyle in a Hot Rod". Same applies with brass instruments.

But ol' Gom ran the filling station and was kind of a low brow savant with cars... Well low brow savant described some of us anyway....

Yeah, W and me marched together.....

[Fran Haring]

At the Scranton show the other night, Statesmen were on G horns. They were certainly loud, but Hawthorne and Reading were louder.

Of course, that and five bucks will get you a cup of coffee :)

Ya see, back in the day when everyone had G horns, coffee was only a buck.

[BigW]

Ya see, back in the day when everyone had G horns, coffee was only a buck. :tongue:/>

I thought it was a nickel! I didn't drink coffee, I think the large cokes for breakfast at Mickey D's were like 69 cents. :D

[pearlsnaredrummer77]

At the Scranton show the other night, Statesmen were on G horns. They were certainly loud, but Hawthorne and Reading were louder.

Of course, that and five bucks will get you a cup of coffee :)

The problem is of course that there are so many variables. How many brass for each corp's, level of playing ability, arrangement style, staging, hearing of audience participant. Etc.

I think an experiment with one player, who would have no given preference, equally adept on either instrument in a controlled environment like a recording studio would be the best way of getting objective data.

I also suspect that the greatest difference may not be in pure volume, but timbre.

[IllianaLancerContra]

The problem is of course that there are so many variables. How many brass for each corp's, level of playing ability, arrangement style, staging, hearing of audience participant. Etc.

I think an experiment with one player, who would have no given preference, equally adept on either instrument in a controlled environment like a recording studio would be the best way of getting objective data.

I also suspect that the greatest difference may not be in pure volume, but timbre.

I understand the variables - I have had 30+ credit hours of Statistics in Grad School. I get it regarding variables - Key of horns, number of horns, number of each type of horn, temperature, humidity, placement on the field, arrangement style, playing ability, how the percussion fits in- heck even back in the 60's there would probably not be enough corps (assuming a 50:50 split between G & B-flat) to have enough data points for a really robust analysis.

But, what I hope to be able to say is that at DCA in 2013, corps x had 33 G bugles, and corps y had 34 B-flat horns. And Corps x registered F decibels, and corps y K decibels.

In a few years even this limited type of analysis will likely not be available...

[BigW]

The problem is of course that there are so many variables. How many brass for each corp's, level of playing ability, arrangement style, staging, hearing of audience participant. Etc.

I think an experiment with one player, who would have no given preference, equally adept on either instrument in a controlled environment like a recording studio would be the best way of getting objective data.

I also suspect that the greatest difference may not be in pure volume, but timbre.

Indeed. I suspect you may be right. Get me a System Blue B flat Bari, a Kanstul, and I'll bring the Ultratone.