What really makes Drum Corps so different

[N.E. Brigand]

And the biggest expenses year after year:

food

fuel

insurance

You're dead on -- nobody wants to talk about things that matter.

Feel free to point us to the discussion you started about how to make it easier for all the corps to afford those things.

[Brad T.]

There's a lot of back and forth about kids not caring what makes the sound when they play in a particular corps.

Ten years ago I seriously looked into Bluecoats since they were the closest corps to home. However my parents said no because of the cost $3000+, and I lost interest because of the fact they had switched to Bb. If I wanted to play a Bb tuba, I could play my high school tuba all summer. I was looking for a musical challenge, not just notes on a page, but learning a new instrument. The kids these days expect instant gratification. They don't want to learn a new horn. They want to play their same old trumpet. They don't want to learn to play a new pit instrument, they want to play drum set or bass guitar.

I'm sure I am in a significant minority, but some kids today might not be interested simply because of the key of the horns.

[N.E. Brigand]

If one wants to be competitive in ANYTHING, they must put themselves out there, fight, climb and yes, even spend. You like sports comparisons: you actually think the Olympian who sits home taking time off for whatever reason (don't have the money for coaches, etc.) should have it made easier for them?

I think no one is saying that it should be easy to succeed at drum corps. Instead the argument is this: very few corps are financially successful. In fact, according to garfield's examination of the corps IRS 990 forms, only three World Class corps (Blue Devils, Cadets, and Santa Clara Vanguard, I think it was) were solidly in the black. Two possibilities leap to mind: all the other 19 corps are being mismanaged ... OR it simply costs too much money to run a drum corps on the current model.

In a surprise twist, it appears that George Hopkins agrees with the latter proposal, since he recently wrote was that it was too expensive to start a new drum corps.

So do you agree that the costs to run a drum corps should be less? Or would it be punishing the success of those three fully-solvent corps to make it a bit easier on everyone?

[GUARDLING]

I think no one is saying that it should be easy to succeed at drum corps. Instead the argument is this: very few corps are financially successful. In fact, according to garfield's examination of the corps IRS 990 forms, only three World Class corps (Blue Devils, Cadets, and Santa Clara Vanguard, I think it was) were solidly in the black. Two possibilities leap to mind: all the other 19 corps are being mismanaged ... OR it simply costs too much money to run a drum corps on the current model.

In a surprise twist, it appears that George Hopkins agrees with the latter proposal, since he recently wrote was that it was too expensive to start a new drum corps.

So do you agree that the costs to run a drum corps should be less? Or would it be punishing the success of those three fully-solvent corps to make it a bit easier on everyone?

yes I would agree it would be nice if it cost less to run a corps...how realistic is it? Im not sure...do I want to revert back somehow in time..? I really don't think it's possible...do I want to see the activity stagnate and frozen in time with kids and staff stifled in way of creativity...no I dont want to see that. do I think outside factors of just the times are a bigger factor than anything a director or staff or members may WANT instead or need YES I do think the times alone could have squashed the activity completely just as it did many other activities from the good ole days.

Do I think it cost way to much to start a drum corps ..yes..but put aside the toys and the tour and I still think many things of today make it just as hard to start anything...and as far as these little drum corps off springs..I had a conversation with one of the greatest directors in drum corps Jim Costello in the 90s..he was extremely concerned with his corps forming an alumni corps an at the time really wasnt for it BECAUSE he felt although it made his organization larger it diminished the members who would join the main corps and take away. In many ways alumni corps did do that which pushed the DCA average age,,very low and now where a 30 or 40 year old was still young in that activity now they are considered the old guys....did it help or hurt the activity..I guess depends how ones look at what improvement means

Edited December 31, 2013 by GUARDLING

[JimF-LowBari]

AT this point things have gotten so #### expensive it's next to impossible to have new corps. Well... we do but they are not 'elite' yet so no one should give a crap and they usually don't survive that long.

Way I see it, things just get more expensive even without the new equipment/toys/whatever and less and less people can join or (more likely) think it's worth their $$$$$ to join. Mean while it's harder and harder for the current corps to stay financially alive, especially in bad economic times.

But as long as one corps stays alive somehow then we can blame everyone else and say it was bad management.

After all the corps are all working with the same finances, support, etc, etc.... right.... I mean the Johnsonburg Diplomats (them again) had just as much of a chance to survive as Buccs or the Cabs right?

Edited December 31, 2013 by JimF-LowBari

[N.E. Brigand]

Yes, I would agree it would be nice if it cost less to run a corps... how realistic is it? I'm not sure. Do I want to revert back somehow in time..? I really don't think it's possible. Do I want to see the activity stagnate and frozen in time with kids and staff stifled in way of creativity... no, I don't want to see that. Do I think outside factors of just the times are a bigger factor than anything a director or staff or members may WANT instead or need? YES, I do think the times alone could have squashed the activity completely just as it did many other activities from the good ole days.

Again: 19 of 22 corps are either losing money or barely breaking even. You seem to think it's more important that there be no "stagnation" than it is to make it easier for those 19 corps to survive. Why is that? You say you don't want to see "kids and staff stifled". How will things go for kids and staffs if there are only three corps left? You say it's not any one thing the corps are doing that are causing them to suffer but instead is "the times", i.e., the conditions under which all corps operate. So how do we fix drum corps so that more of them can be successful in those conditions? And if that solution "stifles" some creativity--and who knows if it would?--would you oppose it?

[JimF-LowBari]

At this point I'd say survival needs to be put higher on the priority list than adding more items for the sake of creativity or looking more like MB because "that's what the kids want". I'm surprised DC still exists in this day and age. But if/when DC goes under is it a good thing to think "being creative or always evolving" was better than doing more to help the activity survive for future genereations.

Edited December 31, 2013 by JimF-LowBari

[MikeD]

but they don't stay for life in the numbers needed. I know people that marched less than 10 years ago that teach that havent been to a show since they aged out

It doesn't matter if they 'stay for life' anymore. The entire model of the activity is changing. Members only march a year or two; audience members are cycled through while in their band programs in large numbers. Staff members at the tech level are also cycling through, staying a couple of years and then moving on, to be replaced by new ageouts who wil stay just a couple of years. You have to break away from the older model in all areas of corps operations.

[MikeD]

Do you think that is somehow analogous to this discussion? The idea being discussed (adding woodwinds to drum corps) does not widen the product line - it does the exact opposite. DCI would become marching band, a product that already exists, while the drum corps product would be taken away.

You have that part correct. Drum corps has never been just one flavor. Not in 2013, not in 2003, not in 1993, not in 1933... not ever. And it has never been frozen in time, not even when rules remained in place from year to year.

Drum corps is and always has been a marching band. So nothing would be 'lost' if WW are added. Having said that...there is no groundswell of instructor support for adding WW to DCI, as there was for amps and electronics.

[Stu]

its pretty clear if you dont compete you have less of a chance period...why do you think way back in the 90s Boston who didnt even start their season till after july 4th wasnt making finals..and it wasnt just because of lack of getting out...the corps was hardly ready..if you want a shot you do what you need to not take time off...If they need to take time off for money reasons..yes thats good planning BUT you cant have it all

and by the way there were more than 2 in favor of the proposals..which were also orchestrated by more than 2 people

if one wants to be competitive in ANYTHING they must put themselves out there, fight, climb and yes even spend....you like sports comparisons....you actually think the Olympian who sits home taking time off for whatever reason..dont have the money for coaches etc etc it should be made easier for them?...hmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe but not harldyI am far from elitists BUT also admire those who are elite in their fields. I also am an advocate for kids staying in their corps so someday THEY can reach an elite status instead of hopping all over the place BUT that doesnt happen often for many reasons one being poor management or a place where people do not grow or given that oppurtunity..its not the kid of the 70s ..if you dont give them what they want or need they are gone.......look around at some corps it happens constantly and not just by ring chasers

Madison Scouts spent June 11 through Aug 2 just in the middle of the country traveling no farther west than Minneapolis; then they took a rather short national type trip out to Morgantown, WV and over to Tulsa, Ok via Texas , then they went to finals AND WON DCI. Overall they competed in 29 shows and 21 of those were in the Midwest. And I can cite many other examples of 2/3 regional touring until the first week of Aug and then 1/3 non-regional touring into finals where a corps placed extremely high, if not actually winning. Of course this all took place prior to the big ‘we have to have an all-summer all-national touring schedule’ to be competitive mentality was pushed upon us.