Stu Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 It isn't wrong to not separate the artist from the art they create. A lot of people do and I can say that I do often do that. However, if that is the case it is important that our judgements of the artist do not fly off the handle. Otherwise we may be exaggerating or over-thinking the supposedly deprave intentions of someone. You judge the art over the artist in one case and then judge the artist over the art in another. I think you need to be consistent and fair in your judgements. And just to use an example of DCI artists, I do not think you are being fair in the judgement of the artists and thus the judgement of their art. I think it's possible for you to be more tolerant/understanding without feeling your are stepping on your own morals/beliefs. I agree that we should not fly of the handle. And I agree that to some extent there is a give and take on the artist and the art. But if an artist attempts to be virtuous and holy in their personal life, then turns around with extremely vulgar creations in the name of art I cannot disconnect that hypocrisy; same goes for someone who is extremely vulgar in their personal life then turns around and at engages in G rated movies. It is in that light in which I draw the line between art and the artist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 To me the issue isn't so much about the vilification of artists based on their criminal or hurtful behavior, that's perfectly reasonable. It's the vilification of an artist - and their entire body of work - based only on the fact that they once did a vulgar artwork. A scarlet letter for life. And the blurring of the line between vulgarity and evil. That's the part I sharply disagree with. In part because drum corps can sometimes do one, but never the other. The key to your statement is, "once did"; and to me you are correct in your entire assessment. Redemption for past vulgar behavior can rule the day if the artist has both repented and changed behavior. And I never stated that DCI and the designers are engaging in the depravity and vulgarity; I stated that I see a potential of DCI going in that direction based on the current trend in our culture as well as examples of subtle acceptance in recent DCI concepts which some choose to ignore or ridicule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 The key to your statement is, "once did"; and to me you are correct in your entire assessment. Redemption for past vulgar behavior can rule the day if the artist has both repented and changed behavior. And I never stated that DCI and the designers are engaging in the depravity and vulgarity; I stated that I see a potential of DCI going in that direction based on the current trend in our culture as well as examples of subtle acceptance in recent DCI concepts which some choose to ignore or ridicule. But we still disagree because they have not done anything morally wrong, so they don't need to repent. We're repeating ourselves, aren't we? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 OT: Someone mentioned "DCP night on the buses." Is that a thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 And you just showed your particular bias with that statement; so while we may have different points of view, apparently we are cut from the same cloth called 'bias'. oh trust me Stu....you make the far left look reasonable too. You make Putin look reasonable LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Ahhhh, ... but a person who espouses 'anything goes', 'perception is reality', truth is relative', 'we cannot project our own judgments on others', should actually be up in arms that a group like that would not allowed to artistically engage in that behavior. I don't espouse any of those. I'm not defending anyone else in this thread or on all of DCP Stu. I'm pointing out how extreme you are, and how you'll do or say anything to make yourself look right, intelligent, and better than everyone else 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 For me the problem with Lady Gaga's antic was not that it was disgusting, but rather that it doesn't seem to have had a point that was worth it. Consider: A WWII general is sitting in a chair on state repeating, "We needed to drop the second bomb on Nagasaki to save lives ... We needed to drop the second bomb on Nagasaki to save lives." Over and over for about five minutes. Then, while he's talking, a Japanese boy on crutches comes out and vomits green liquid on the general. Then walks back off stage. That would have had a point. That's not a well formed idea, but I'm not an artist. My point is that it's not the thing itself, it's the context in which it's used. well until a drum corps has people puking on each other on the field, who gives a ####? I guess it was ok to you in 1988 when VK had the bull #### on the matador right? or does that too offend your sensibilities because it was "humor"? Just calling a spade a spade 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Here's a hypothetical situation---- I'm driving down the freeway in my car, when a Lady Gaga song comes across on my radio. If I don't instantly turn my radio off, pull it out of my dashboard, and throw it out the window at 70 miles an hour; am I now someone who supports and approves of Lady Gaga's stage performances, or someone who just doesn't care enough to turn it off? you heretic! blasphemer! Devil worshipper! Dada lover! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I have given examples of why I have pause for concern for DCI; but they have been conveniently ignored. While BD did not engage in debauchery, they did lift up a venue which not only allowed it but celebrated it; while adultery and sexual acts were not performed, Boston did give a wink, wink to giving in to sexual temptation as being acceptable behavior; while no one has performed any of the Gaga depravity on the field, many have posted that they not only consume her art and defend her antics, they would one day like to see a Gaga type show concept done by a DCI corps. What was immediately thrown back at me, even though I have given examples of my concerns for DCI, was how I dare call this current cultural artistic trend depraved, how dare I make judgements, that my concerns are rather prudish, that I am closed minded and need to just become more accepting, that while Cabaret Voltaire allowed some of the most vile things to be performed it did have some non-depraved art performed and BD only presented the non-depraved side so that makes it ok, ad infinitum. And I am more than willing to throw it back for debate. So, it is up to you to accept or reject the examples I have provided, but to say that I have not provided them is an inaccurate statement. i've given an example twice you've ignored. VK 88, Mystery tour 2...during the bullfight, the bull wins, rears up, then when he comes down, lifts his back left leg and "urinates" on the "matador. so as such, this shoudl then be as vile to you as this other stuff is. or the numerous deaths in many of Phantoms recent shows, hell even Spartacus 81 and 82. BD 06 doing the Godfather...celebrating organized crime? I could go on and on, but you'll ignore them because it destroys your argument. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 HockeyDad, here is a relatitive truth for ya: All ya have to do is just 'percieve' that gravity pull on earth is the same as it is on the moon when ya hit that golf ball and things will be fine for ya!!!! but then perception isn't reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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