What Defines Our Activity

[GUARDLING]

These so-called member contracts, no matter the era and no matter how they were structured, are sort of like putting a lock on your back yard gate; it just keeps the honest people from walking into your back yard. Kids went to other corps owing a considerable amount to a previous corps bitd and nothing really stopped them then and it still goes on today. Moreover, these contracts have always had more holes in them than a piece of aged Swiss cheese in which a first year para-legal could probably knock out of the park if ever contested.

this is true. On the money issue,.The winter programs have the same issue although do know a few cases that went to small claims court.there should be more of this or at least kids kept from moving on until the piper gets paid.

Thats crystal ball gazing realm. The notion that if there were transfer policies implemented as a change element in DCI and that they'd be no substantial change in placements after a year of two of implementation is not only speculation at best from you, it probably flys in the face of all data that demonstrates pretty conclusively that teams in sports that have transfer policies in place rarely have 3 teams dominate 26 other teams the way the 3 Corps in DCI have dominated the activity for 35 years winning over 80% of the titles. Nobody can state with any level of confidence that if BD had levels of restriction imposed upon them with transfewr policies that they'd continue to win at the levels they have. Its silly to state such things with such levels of certitide by you that it seems downright silly to me.

winners win period.they would make sure they know what they need to do to succeed. When kids pay as they do today not sport teams who are paid.its another story and have nothing to do with this activity.

[Stu]

No.. As thyese were policy changes that they themselves pushed thru. I am talking about the transfer rules here. its not gouing to happen that we'll have transfer policy changes.. my comment was that if DCI did do what most Amateur and Pro groups do.. have a transfer policy put in place, that the chances of the Cadevaliers winning 80% of the DCI Titles over the NEXT 35 years... as they have the LAST 35 years.... is probably highly unlikely, thats all. But the prevailing sentiment is thatt we don't want restrictions in transfer policies... ok, I GET that... so expect more of the same over the next 35 years too. Thats the real deal here, good, bad, or indifferent

I would consider, maybe, possibly supporting some sort of red-shirt type policy like what occurs in the NCAA. However:

a) My guess is that a red-shirt type policy in DCI would certainly hurt the audition numbers for lower WC corps, and all OC corps, due to youth fearing getting stuck out on a limb for a year before they could transfer to another corps. and....

b) Exactly how do you propose DCI actually enforcing such a rule with teeth that would not in turn create a blowback unintended consiquesnce of hurting the lower division corps auditions?

Edited April 2, 2014 by Stu

[fsubone]

I would consider, maybe, possibly supporting some sort of red-shirt type policy like what occurs in the NCAA. However:

a) My guess is that a red-shirt type policy in DCI would certainly hurt the audition numbers for lower WC corps, and all OC corps, due to youth fearing getting stuck out on a limb for a year before they could transfer to another corps. and....

b) Exactly how do you propose DCI actually enforcing such a rule with teeth that would not in turn create a blowback unintended consiquesnce of hurting the lower division corps auditions?

And in any sort of activity with an age limit, how could they possibly put down a red-shirt policy that would rob those students of a year?

[BRASSO]

I've been around DCI corps in the last decade, how about you? The only times I've ever seen this happen is either if a corps folded, or if they were a small OC corps, and their season ended short of Finals. Corps don't go out of their way taking marchers from other corps like you're insinuating.

What if I told you " I arrived " at DCI last year ? What difference would it make ? ( its untrue.. but just for discussion purposes ). A Poster's value in their commentary is not determined by their number of years in the activity, but in the logic, insights, observations, remarks, etc found in their commentary. As such, I won't tell you how long I've " been around DCI Corps " ( or other Corps for that matter) as its irrelevent and some inexperienced posters can be intimidated by the comments of more experienced posters with the activity. Frankly, I know a few new arrivals to the activity that make WAY more sense to me with their understandings of things in Drum Corps than you and a few others on here. Some of the commentary by some of the followers in the activity are positively ridiculous to me. But its a free board, and everyone, no matter their experience, are entitled to demonstrate for us their grasp of the real and their understanding of the history and the present embodied in the discussion of this actiivity.

[BRASSO]

b) Exactly how do you propose DCI actually enforcing such a rule with teeth that would not in turn create a blowback unintended consiquesnce of hurting the lower division corps auditions?

I don't envision DCI enacting a transfer policy re. transfers as the culture is so baked in to the impossibility of its consideration that I believe that it would be just about impossible to garner support for such a transfer policy to be be even considered, let alone securing enough votes for its passage. So in my view, it is fantasyland to discuss the impossible.. but in my view, such a consideration should not be rejected by DCI without a serious discussion of both its positives and its negatives. I 've already mentioned that some circuits had transfer policies in place before before DCI and it seemed to work ok for those circuits that did implement it. But that was then... and this is now. Things are different now too,

Edited April 2, 2014 by BRASSO

[fsubone]

What if I told you " I arrived " at DCI last year ? What difference would it make ?

It would make a difference, since you continually try and say my knowledge isn't accurate. It seems more like you have some sort of problem with what I write than anything else.

[Jeff Ream]

And rightly so. The NFL has no exclusionary policy that prohibits a City franchise from outside the US from seeking admittance to the NFL for competition. The fact that no NFL franchise has elected to do do.. either due to travel, distance, money, talent, interest reasons etc, does not prevent the current winner for making its legitimate claim as " World Champion " . Plus, I assume you understand that until recently, the American version of " football " was not played in 95% of the planet outside of the US, so thats another reason that the Super Bowl winner could make the legitimate claim of "World Champion". in this sport. Similarly, for many years, US never competed in World Soccer international competition. This however, never prevented the Brazilians, for one example, from claiming to be " World Champions " of Soccer, simply because the US ( and other countries as well ) did not enter a team in the competition. Also, the World Basketball Champion used to be declared by other countries as " World Champions of Basketball ", and correctly so, even though the US did not enter their NBA Pro players into that competition. Likewise, unless there is an attempt at institutional exclusion, all these outfits are legitimately given the right to declare themselves " World Champions " as the entire world was given the opportunity, had they chosen, to contend for that World Title with the entry of a team.

gee Brasso, ya think I get that American football is different from the rest of the world's football?

but again, as usual, you miss the point....they call themselves what they want, and really, the only thing that can change that is a lawsuit. No amount of #####ing in here will change a thing

[Jeff Ream]

Here is a general paraphrase of how this was presented to many of my students who were at tier 2; and mind you not just by one corps:

“Ok; it is February (or March, or April) and you are on tier 2. You can, if you want, try and go to another corps and audition for them, but just know that they have had people there since November like us. However, you certainly are invited back to our following camps and continue to receive our great instruction from our fine and excellent staff which could potentially propel you into tier 1 with a contract by June, possibly allow you to tour with us as an alternate, and at the very least it will get you very prepared for our November camp for next season.”

Of course one might say they were being honest about the situation with other corps, but that is really not true. Many, many, many corps, especially OC corps, would welcome new youth the months of March through June with open arms!!! But instead of encouraging the kids to actually go perform with a so-called inferior corps, they were encouraged to continue receiving instruction from the camps at the so-called superior corps. My take as to why this occurres: I take it that they expect some tier 1 kids to peter-out before summer tour begins or even while on tour, and the corps wants to hedge their bets by keeping a reserve of kids in a pool (ie what I refer to as stringing them along) just in case a few exits by some tier 1 kids happens. And to me that is far from looking out for the best interest of the tier 2 kids but only using them as sacrificial pawns. If DCI were an actual Major League professional competitive organization I would say that system was fine and dandy. But if part of the mission of DCI and DCI corps is to give youth the best possible chance at achieving performance goals, then letting tier 2 kids go early on, and encouraging them to go to a place they can receive that performance outlet, is actually looking out for the best interest of the tier 2 youth.

one thing missing:

many kids today would rather hold out hope for that spot with the name corps, than go to an Open Class corps.

[Jeff Ream]

I still contend that this tier system, which maybe was originally intended to soften the blow of being ‘cut’, has actually become a ‘hedging their bets’ situation by the staff; and it is now used as a way for them to keep a reserve pool of kids active to fill potential spots vacated by late-quitting tier 1 performers. That said…

I agree that personal responsibility comes into play as it applies to the decision making process of the youth. But will you agree that the way something is presented by a staff member, a person that the youth looks up to for advice, greatly influences the way decisions are made by that youth? But before you answer consider the following:

You cite from the handbook which indicates that those in tier 2 are to believe that they have a potential to make the corps if they show progress by returning to the next camp. That is fine and dandy. But where is the encouragement by the staff for them to also possibly apply elsewhere so that they can have a real shot at performing somewhere over the summer instead of returing to their camp after camp after camp? And since you cited one of my previous postings, here is another posting by me which is directly related to the way this information is typically presented to tier 2 kids camp after camp after camp by staff in quite a lot of corps: “Ok; it is February (or March, or April) and you are on tier 2. You can, if you want, try and go to another corps and audition for them, but just know that they have had people there since November like us. However, you certainly are invited back to our following camps and continue to receive our great instruction from our fine and excellent staff which could potentially propel you into tier 1 with a contract by June, possibly allow you to tour with us as an alternate, and at the very least it will get you very prepared for our November camp for next season.” So, with that in mind, will you agree that the way something is presented by a staff member, a person that the youth looks up to for advice, greatly influences the way decisions are made by that youth?

honestly...that staff member is being very honest with that statement.

[Jeff Ream]

You forgot to mention Dave Gibbs and George Hopkins holding a puppy-kicking contest to see who could kick one the furthest.

my money's on Hop