Oh oh!

[geluf]

However, some of it has to do with the fact that there are fewer corps today. You CAN'T drop 17 places from a practical perspective, really.

[HornTeacher]

Oh-ohhh....I just realized that I forgot to accomplish #7 on my "honey-do" list for Sunday....

I know that matters little to the readership of DCP. But to my wife? Well....the readership of DCP matters just as little to her.

Either way -- I'm screwed. Guess this means my sojourn to Allentown is now officially out of the question.....

Edited June 22, 2014 by HornTeacher

[N.E. Brigand]

This is some great stuff.

(Except Troopers went from 18 to 13 [not 17 to 12].)

Oops! I also had Star debuting in 1995 rather than 1985. Both fixed.Thanks for catching that!

[N.E. Brigand]

What people forget is: there's one way to make this different and shake it up, as you said: GET BETTER! that means not just on the field but off. People love to find all the other ways how corps are held back but never address this one. It's always the other guys' fault why someone doesn't get better or improve. As much as I do think some things and people need to change, I do not think it would change a thing. WINNERS KNOW HOW TO WIN. jmo

So are you saying that in the late 1980s and early 1990s, winners did not know how to win?

Is that why three different first-place corps dropped by five or more places the next year in the period 1989-1993 but only one corps did so in the period 2009-2013?

[GUARDLING]

So are you saying that in the late 1980s and early 1990s, winners did not know how to win?

Is that why three different first-place corps dropped by five or more places the next year in the period 1989-1993 but only one corps did so in the period 2009-2013?

I dont remember saying anything about any decade not knowing how to win or not. I said Winners know how to win period so no matter how one wants things to change UNLESS a corps faces something that changes their capability of maintaining things usually stay pretty much the same. Some think theres a conspiracy that keeps corps out of the top spots. NO, thats not so, corps keep those spots for 1 reason only. Does it happen that it changes, of course it does.

Some tend to whine that theres little change at the top, WELL, duh, why would that be? That's what i'm saying and look at corps like Crown, BC and others who GOT BETTER to make it where they are today. So what I meant if I didnt do it well is corps can be responsible for where they are in the competition results. Also ( unfortunately for some ) a corps could be 10x better than the year before and fall or stay the same BUT thats usually because others around them also improved. I cant tell you how many times I have had conversations with a staff from a corps who did everything right and improved so much BUT didnt move up and they were like " see" . Well, they assume others wouldn't improve. There have been dozens of corps over the years who didnt make finals in a given year but in other years would have been top 10. So all one can do is not make excuses and just improve. No conspiracy to keep a corps down. Yes winners know how to win , of all decades.

Edited June 23, 2014 by GUARDLING

[N.E. Brigand]

So what changed between 1989 and 2013? Why was there so much more movement then than now? I'm not talking about corps improving or falling 15 slots, as happened regularly in the 1970s, when there were a lot more corps. I'm talking about corps in the top 15 moving 5 to 10 places from one year to the next. Twenty years ago, that happened about twice each year. Now only half that. What's different now? If it's a matter of winners knowing how to win, as you say, then how was it possible for Madison Scouts '89, Santa Clara Vanguard '90, and Cadets '91 all to "forget" how to win big time in successive years, something that only Phantom Regiment '09 has managed lately?

[GUARDLING]

So what changed between 1989 and 2013? Why was there so much more movement then than now? I'm not talking about corps improving or falling 15 slots, as happened regularly in the 1970s, when there were a lot more corps. I'm talking about corps in the top 15 moving 5 to 10 places from one year to the next. Twenty years ago, that happened about twice each year. Now only half that. What's different now? If it's a matter of winners knowing how to win, as you say, then how was it possible for Madison Scouts '89, Santa Clara Vanguard '90, and Cadets '91 all to "forget" how to win big time in successive years, something that only Phantom Regiment '09 has managed lately?

yes., there can be many reasons....look at corps who win 1 year and totally flop the next yet another corps never leaves top 5. ..It can all happen again IF things change within a corps, take Cavies as an example. Sometimes 1 change can also domino other things. 20 years ago we may have had more of a grouping of corps in a range of say 5-17 and now there can be a clear difference ( maybe not this year so far ) of a 1-5 group...6-10 group and 11-15...it hasnt been very hard to neighborhood corps into these groups. after a viewing, not that a corps couldn't move drastically, they dont maybe but I say it is only because of their own methods . It's a game, a formula for sure and no short cuts to success, which one can measure their own success and what that means to them. Corps that jumped upward just plain got better, now maintaining it can be another story , thats what I mean by a winner knows how to win and consistently learn how to maintain.

Another reason for less movement now compared to another time can be that there are more corps better today which lends itself to less movement. It could be the exact same thing if 20 corps sucked..lol

Any of this make sense to you . I may have just worded myself to death ..lol..sorry

Edited June 23, 2014 by GUARDLING

[jwillis35]

Love the data that was posted. Such a great way to look at the consistency, or lack of, with each of the corps. I often ask myself, what happened when some of those big jumps happen (pos. or neg.)? For instance:

+8 -- 1982 Suncoast Sound (21st> 13th)

In this case it was clearly Suncoast having a great staff when it came to music arrangement, drill, show design, and their ability to teach. Suncoast would eventually jump into the top 12, getting as high as 6th I think. Do they make this move to 13th because they out-perform their competition? Yes. Are they also the beneficiary of some corps losing staff and/or perhaps losing their way? Yes.

+6 -- 1980 Cadets (16th>10th)

This is another case of great staff and some miracle funding. Dr. Richard Santo (corps director at that time) saves the Cadets from bankruptcy and brings in a fabulous staff of teachers and designers. The collective of these teachers and designers would go on to lead Garfield to 3 World Titles in a row (83-85), and another in 1987. They would re-construct what we thought of as design and movement, and they became the first corps from the East Coast to win a DCI World Title. Remember that most experts were certain that 27th Lancers would be that corps. Clearly, this jump was the indication of great staff, some financial backing, and smart director who made the right moves, and the Legacy of Garfield which perhaps allowed it to stave off extinction. The jump here had more to do with Garfield simply beating the competition.

+6 -- 1981 Santa Clara Vanguard (7th>1st)

This one is a little different. SCV was a POWER through the entire 70s. They were a potentially top 2 corps every year. Their 7th place finish in 1980 was not a sign of bad performance or weakness on the part of the staff, but they simply gambled on show design (which ultimately prevailed years later from an influential standpoint) and had to make too many adjustments all summer. When they came back in 1981 and won a DCI title, with an extremely musical horn and drum line I might add, it had more to do with SCV being themselves. If anything the drop to 7th in 1980 was the shocker. SCV rising back-up and winning in 1981 was par for the course.

+13 -- 1986 Bluecoats (28th>15th)

A jump this big almost always indicates change in staff and/or philosophy. That was the case for Blooo. In 1984 the corps had financial issues, even almost folded. Ted Swaldo stepped in around then, late 1984/85. Made big changes, infused money, started a bingo game, you name it. In 1986 they had better infrastructure, better staff, and the scores began to show it. They simply out-performed many corps that had traditionally beat them in the past, and the Bluecoats made a loud statement that they were gunning for top 12. They got there, and now they are a perennial top 6 corps, with some years in the top 5, even a 3rd place finish in 2010. This year looks promising!!!! Could we finally have a DCI World Title in Canton? Time will tell.

+5 -- 1987 Phantom Regiment (10th>5th)

-6 -- 1989 Madison Scouts (1st>7th)

These two instances are polar opposites to me. Phantom was consistently a top 5 corps from 1977 - 1984. In 1985 they simply fell behind in drill design, and their ambitious show for the 85 year never materialized. One year later, in 1986, they fell from 8th to 10th. Why? After all, much of their staff was still the same. Had they really forgotten how to teach or design shows? No. But the dynamics of drum corps had drastically changed with Garfield in 1983, 84, and 85. Keeping up their unique style at this time presented a problem, and the 86 show never materialized and they could never clean it (too much tweaking). When they do the White Ballet show of 1987 (including rep from this year--Swan Lake) it was Phantom finding their voice again, while also upgrading demand in visual (drill and GE). They were actually 3rd after semifinals and I felt that's where they belonged, but they had a rough Finals performance.

With Madison, they had typically been a 5th to 7th place corps in the mid to late 80s. Their World Title in 1988 felt like a once-in-a-lifetime show (even though they did have a title in 1975). Had the staff changed? No. Did they not know how to program a show? No. They had fabulous staff, but it was a staff that put entertainment above all else, even over scores and placements. When they won the title in 1988 it just seemed like everything clicked, and the stars aligned as well. European tour for 2 weeks, excellent literature, had a 3rd place drum line, and boy did they clean the marching by summer's end. But in 1989 they took some chances, concentrated on entertainment, and still produced a quality show, but one that was more indicative of their avg. placement in the late 80s.

There are many more examples, but when I see those kinds of jumps (+/-) I am reminded that something behind the scenes caused it to happen.

Edited June 23, 2014 by jwillis35

[N.E. Brigand]

Thanks for the detailed insights. Great stuff. It does lead back to the question, though: do the sorts of causes you identify for each of those leaps and falls not happen much anymore? Or do those kinds of reasons still exist and yet are being mitigated by other factors?

Edit: I just realized you started a new thread about this topic. I'll post there instead.

Edited June 23, 2014 by N.E. Brigand

[rayfallon]

BRASSO makes a good point. Here are the largest annual placement changes into, out of, or within the top 15 for for each five-year period of DCI's history. I have not counted corps who first competed in a given year (like Star of Indiana in 1985) or stopped competing in a given year (like Glassmen in 2013), in which categories are included both hiatus years and corps who were disqualified in the previous year like 1977 Bridgemen. Because there are 41 years, and because there was a pronounced degree of heightened volatility in the earliest years, the first group is a six-year period, and shows changes of nine or more placements; for the rest of the list, the cut-off is change of five or more positions. There are probably a few errors in here, but it gives a general picture:

1973-1978 (six years)

-27 -- 1976 Black Knights (15th>42nd)

-22 -- 1974 Argonne Rebels (11th>33rd)

-21 -- 1976 Kilties (7th>28th)

+19 -- 1976 Guardsmen (31st>12th)

+18 -- 1977 Kilties (28th> 10th)

-17 -- 1974 Bridgemen (9th>26th)

+16 -- 1975 27th Lancers (20th>4th)

+16 -- 1978 Spirit of Atlanta (22nd>6th)

+15 -- 1974 Blue Devils (24th>9th)

-15 -- 1978 Seneca Optimists (8th > 23rd)

-13 -- 1973 Des Plaines Vanguard (7th>20th)

-13 -- 1974 27th Lancers (7th>20th)

+12 -- 1973 Commodores (24th>12th)

+11 -- 1975 Squires (24th>13th)

+11 -- 1975 Precisionaires (25th>14th)

+10 -- 1973 Madison Scouts (14th>4th)

+9 -- 1973 Phantom Regiment (23rd>14th)

-9 -- 1973 Bleu Raeders (12th>21st)

-9 -- 1974 Blue Stars (3rd> 12th)

-9 -- 1978 Cavaliers (7th>16th)

1979-1983

-20 -- 1979 Kilties (12th>32nd)

-17 -- 1982 Guardsmen (15th>32nd)

-11 -- 1980 Offensive Lions (15th>26th)

+8 -- 1979 Troopers (20th>12th)

+8 -- 1980 Seattle Imperials (23rd>15th)

+8 -- 1981 Freelancers (19th>11th)

+8 -- 1982 Suncoast Sound (21st> 13th)

+7 -- 1983 Suncoast Sound (13th> 6th)

+6 -- 1980 Cadets (16th>10th)

+6 -- 1981 Santa Clara Vanguard (7th>1st)

-6 -- 1983 Crossmen (7th>13th)

+5 -- 1979 Cavaliers (16th>11th)

+5 -- 1980 Crossmen (13th>8th)

-5 -- 1980 Guardsmen (7th>12th)

-5 -- 1980 Freelancers (14th>19th)

-5 -- 1981 Spirit of Atlanta (4th>9th)

-5 -- 1981 Seattle Imperials (15th>20th)

+5 -- 1983 Spirit of Atlanta (12th>7th)

1984-1988

+13 -- 1986 Bluecoats (28th>15th)

-7 -- 1985 Crossmen (10th>17th)

+6 -- 1986 Sky Ryders (15th>9th)

+6 -- 1987 Florida Wave (19th>13th)

-6 -- 1987 Troopers (11th>17th)

-6 -- 1988 Boston Crusaders (14th>20th)

+5 -- 1984 Velvet Knights (17th>12th)

-5 -- 1984 Sky Ryders (17th>12th)

+5 -- 1987 Phantom Regiment (10th>5th)

+5 -- 1987 Velvet Knights (12th>7th)

+5 -- 1988 Madison Scouts (6th>1st)

1989-1993

+8 -- 1993 Colts (20th>12th)

+7 -- 1991 Sky Ryders (19th>12th)

-6 -- 1989 Madison Scouts (1st>7th)

+5 -- 1989 Freelancers (15th>10th)

-5 -- 1989 Spirit of Atlanta (10th>14th)

-5 -- 1990 Santa Clara Vanguard (1st>6th)

+5 -- 1990 Crossmen (12th>7th)

-5 -- 1990 Sky Ryders (14th>19th)

-5 -- 1991 Cadets (1st>6th)

-5 -- 1992 Phantom Regiment (3rd>8th)

-5 -- 1992 Dutch Boy (13th>18th)

+5 -- 1993 Phantom Regiment (8th>3rd)

-5 -- 1993 Sky Ryders (15th>20th)

1994-1998

+8 -- 1996 Les Etoiles Dorion Vaudreuil (23rd>15th)

+7 -- 1996 Kiwanis Kavaliers (21st>14th)

+6 -- 1995 Carolina Crown (17th>11th)

-6 -- 1995 Blue Knights (7th>13th)

+5 -- 1994 Magic of Orlando (16th>11th)

+5 -- 1994 Troopers (19th>14th)

-5 -- 1996 Glassmen (8th> 13th)

-5 -- 1996 Troopers (14th>19th)

+5 -- 1997 Glassmen (13th>8th)

1999-2003

-8 -- 2001 Blue Knights (6th>14th)

+6 -- 1999 Boston Crusaders (15th>9th)

-6 -- 2002 Carolina Crown (16th>10th)

+6 -- 2003 Madison Scouts (14th>8th)

+6 -- 2003 Carolina Crown (16th>10th)

-6 -- 2003 Glassmen (8th>14th)

2004-2008

-6 -- 2004 Magic of Orlando (11th>17th)

-6 -- 2007 Madison Scouts (9th>15th)

+6 -- 2008 Blue Stars (14th>8th)

+5 -- 2004 Capital Regiment (19th>14th)

-5 -- 2005 Santa Clara Vanguard (3 rd>8th)

-5 -- 2008 Academy (13th>18th)

2009-2013

-8 -- 2009 Phantom Regiment (1st-9th)

+5 -- 2010 Madison Scouts (15th-10th)

-5 -- 2012 Cavaliers (3rd-8th)

+5 -- 2012 Crossmen (17th-12th)

+5 -- 2013 Troopers (18th-13th)

So while I would love for things to be otherwise, there's not much chance of a shake-up anymore.

Wow... I LOVE your stats, and the passion to get this out there.

I'm going to (very humbly - you've earned an iron-clad right to the conclusion you've drawn from these facts) humbly opine that 2009 - 2013 actually indicates that there is still a shot at dramatic shake up. maybe not a lot, but these days it only takes a couple of corps moving a position or two to change the way the Earth spins on its axis.

17th to 12th is pretty earth shaking. and wonderful. 18th to 13th fairly miraculous.

3rd to 8th will get someone's attention, hopefully.

Great work on these. I used to get off on stats but now that I have no one marching I've geared back. Really good stuff.