Im sorry DCI, you need to fix the scoring again

[ContraFart]

People complain that its BD because they are changing the paradigm of drum corps.

The "paradigm" of drum corps has been changing ever since the 1930's. It's what drum corps does.

The way I see it is the established paradigm of drum corps basically comes down to playing, drumming, marching and spinning. When it comes to the marching paradigm, most corps used drill as the primary tool to create visual complexity. BD does not do that,

Yes they do. Their primary method of locomotion from one visual phrase to another throughout the show is through DRILL, no different than another corps. That they also have chosen to coordinate and integrate their drill through a variety of props and stages and layers is what separates them to a large degree from their competitors, as they have completely mastered the art of visual integration and staging. If anything, they have paved the way for the activity to think beyond the box in terms of offering something different than JUST marching a drill. Their's is a visual paradigm of "drill AND...," and I for one think that's a good thing.

they add props and layers while making drill secondary to what they are trying to achieve visually to a point that at times drill is not used at all. To me this makes the entire approach easier...at least physically and I feel that this is changing the established paradigm. This is why people like me have such a strong negative reaction, the same way purists have a negative reaction to Bb horns or E&A. The move to WGI style staging, rather than marching is something that really only BD has done, although other corps are putting more emphasis on props. However it seems that this "easier" approach is getting rewarded by the judging community leaving the established paradigm of drill complexity in the dust.

Make no mistake about it. The Blue Devils can MARCH and march well, in any kind of drill, fast or slow, large step sizes or small, passthroughs or reshapes, you name it, they can do it as well as anyone. (They still do massed line rotations better than anyone I've ever seen.) They just choose to not do all of the same thing throughout their show, choosing instead for variety, demonstrating a mastery of skills when those skills are required in their performance. If they feel like dance of some kind is needed for a particular part of the show, they'll dance, and dance well. If they feel like marching drill through various props and then utilizing those props within the context of their drill is the way to go for that part of the show, they'll do that and do it well. If they feel like saving some "run and gun" old school fast-paced drill for those parts of the show that need it, they can do that too. And do it extremely well. And all of this while playing at such a superb level of musical skill. That's why they're so good. And for anyone to think that what they do is easy just because they don't choose to run all over the field for 6 or 7 minutes during their show, whether the show calls for it or not, is crazy. They pick their spots, they demonstrate a variety of skill sets that no other corps can consistently match, and people think they should go back to the way they used to do it? Or that the scoring system should be changed because of it? Nonsense! If anything, the Blue Devils have shown us a glimpse of the future, and I say the other corps better STEP UP THEIR GAME.

I completely disagree with you. First of a paradigm can evolve without changing as long as the basic premise of the paradigm remains. The 4 elements I laid out (playing, drumming, marching and spinning) are certainly different than the 1930s, but the basic premise is still there.

Since 2008 BD has not used drill as connection between phrases up to a point that sections are connected by the kids just running from set to another. Also they do march and play simultaneously very often. If I did a tick tock since 2008,I would guess that 2/3 of the playing by the hornline would be stand still.

If BD can march and play well in any capacity as you say, then why have they not done it in the past 8 years? I would agree the elements they do display are done very well, but other corps don't do 13 minutes of box rotations. As I said before the visual complexity is created by the drill, where as in BDs complexity the drill is an afterthought.

The best way I can describe it is that BD is a top notch actor winning a dancing competition. I just think the dancers should be winning instead.

[hardlyworking]

If BD can march and play well in any capacity as you say, then why have they not done it in the past 8 years?

If you listen real close, you can hear a faint "whoosh" as all your credibility goes flying out the window.

[IllianaLancerContra]

As I said in an earlier thread - as it is right now, 8 of 37 (22%) corps entered received a score in excess of 90. Sheets need to be revised so only the top 10% receive a score in the top 10% (i.e., above 90). As it is, only 54% of the scores available are used (lowest score was a 46). At the rate it is going we are headed toward a time when the top 12 are separated by only 2-3 points.

[caliswift]

If you listen real close, you can hear a faint "whoosh" as all your credibility goes flying out the window.

Boom.

[Kamarag]

As I said in an earlier thread - as it is right now, 8 of 37 (22%) corps entered received a score in excess of 90. Sheets need to be revised so only the top 10% receive a score in the top 10% (i.e., above 90). As it is, only 54% of the scores available are used (lowest score was a 46). At the rate it is going we are headed toward a time when the top 12 are separated by only 2-3 points.

People have been making that argument for decades, and it's never come to pass. Did you know the record score for a tenth place corps (89.1 for Suncoast Sound) still stands today?

[The Dude]

BD plays and marches alot. Watch their drill it is not as spread and based around shapes as drill was in the past, it is very intricate, well thought out, and tells a story with the music. They have people jazz running in a good bit of the show but their style is designed so that the goal is the audience shouldn't be able to see who is running and who isn't. No height level changes, think smooth ballet movement approach. A dancer puts an immense amount of energy and effort into their movements but it looks "easy" to the audience. Every year BD has a goal not to win but to be better than the past Blue Devils not to win first ex. better than the 94 Devils, 03, 07 etc. A ballet approach is organic and easy looking despite the difficulty level while others who will remain unmentioned bounce across the field with half the control of the Blue Devil members looking like their show is "difficult" even groups who have won I've seen jazz run at a 7 to 5 step size in 2008. Like it or not they are the pinnacle of consistency (with Garfield) in the activity. They are innovative and lets face it their 2008 show began a shift in the activity and was VERY clean but not theatrical. Devils can be cleaner than others and judged harder due to legacy.

In short, their staff is possibly the best instructional staff in the activity and yes the members are good. If other groups have an issue with Devils winning their 16th title......get better. Sorry. The Cadets manage to be competitive every year. Rosemont was and would've continued had they kept their staff of the early 2000's. So get over the fact they are flat out more successful. The crowd response....wait for it......Never in their home crowd so of course people don't stand and cheer as much. Take tour to the west coast and see how the responses change. Remember Pasadena? Huge standing ovation when it was sporadic throughout the preceding parts of the season. They play to Phantom, Bluecoats, Cadets, Cavies, Glassmen, and everyone else's home crowd. Face it, put the rest in Cali and see how their response measures.

P.S. The Blue Devils take risks in their shows and don't do a for sure crowd pleaser. That is one reason they have changed the activity for years and certain people push back. They are the same that wish they had been as successful or have a want for the past. Maybe even driving the same Pinto they bought in the seventies. Amps were the devil, Bb horns the devil, drill integrated in the show not just shapes is the devil, and I'm not old enough but I'm sure asymmetrical drill was the devil at first.

Get over the fact they were that much better than everyone and get over the fact the only really truly consistent groups are the Cadets and the Blue Devils. There is no reason to be top 3 one year and 8th the next unless the group doesn't innovate a risky show people may not buy into and the members are given inconsistent instruction.

Their approach isn't easier.....everyone else makes theirs look harder due to lower performance levels and achievement. If people want someone else to win then simply get better and quit whining. Use that energy of complaining to strive for the performance level a corps with a pro approach that lets members sleep and doesn't treat them as though they are in boot camp. Good members don't want to get sleep deprived and go from the bus to practice and build bad performance habits due to the inability to focus on good habits therefore creating a hopefully energetic show with hopefully not to many body control and mental issue due to fatigue so they get old and "retire" at the Blue Devils.

Riddle me this batman.... "Props" I don't remember that many complaints about Phantom's spears and chains or the Cadets's door they found their way through...............Or Crown's props. Why is it an issue with BD?

Also, yes I was in the activity for 5 seasons have one ring and I might know what I'm saying. Those who know me will recognize this post as I've said this for years. Those that don't I never said I am BD alum or Cadets Alum or Vanguard. I've seen people trash BD for years. Get over it and get better and maybe their dynasty of 30 plus years will end. I've been reading this forum for years and never posted until now. Can't say the new guy hasn't seen every year of "BD is boring and does an easy show."

[ContraFart]

The "BD makes it look easy" argument is a false argument. At some point easier is just easier. Cavies in the early 2000s made something difficult look easy, but at the same time people knew it was hard. The lack of demand argument would not be so polarizing if there not valid points in both premises.

My argument is nuanced, I know. However while I recognize the complexity in BDs approach, the sheer physical demand does not match that of the 5 or 6 corps below them.

Here is an interesting correlation....the only 3 times BD was beaten in the past 8 years, they were beaten by the top level corps that went out west. I wonder if there is anything to that.

[The Dude]

I rest my case. Get better. Charlie Parker made it look and sound easy as does Coltrane, Christian Lindberg and any great performer. If it looks hard, you're not in control.

[Kamarag]

My argument is nuanced, I know. However while I recognize the complexity in BDs approach, the sheer physical demand does not match that of the 5 or 6 corps below them.

This is the first time you've made this important distinction, and the first time your argument has really held any water. Assuming fast = hard (the prevailing thought around here), you can maybe make your argument. However, fast is not necessarily hard. Especially if you are playing fast notes. Fast drill with sustains...that's hard (physically).

The Blue Devils do a good amount of fast/hard, but demonstrate an even greater amount of mental demand...far more than any other corps (I think Crown is the closest). Whiplash drill may be physically demanding, but it's not at all hard mentally. You generally only have one dress responsibility, and the goal is to keep your interval from the guy in front of you. That's not me just talking either, that's directly from Zingali and Sylvester (marched under them both).

Devils to a tremendous amount of mentally demanding drill (very often while physically demanding...like the end of this year's show). Form compression/expansion/rotations are tremendously difficult, particularly when you employ two or all three of those elements at once. Blind and double-blind pass throughs? Crazy hard, at any speed.

And that's all before we even broach the fact that "hard" does not necessarily mean "good". And there's a whole lot of "hard for hard's sake" and "hard but crappy" in DCI.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Kamarag

[The Dude]

Amen