GUARDLING Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 (edited) I also enjoy the Phantomettes. I hope they are much improved this coming season because a 9th place finish in guard at Finals like this past summer is not going to cut it. I am not sure what has happened since 2010, 2011, and 2012 when Phantom's guard was 5th, 3rd and 3rd place respectively at Finals, but I am hoping for a better result in 2015. It's often not that a guard got worse or a design flaw ( sometimes it is ) but it also has to do with other corps getting better . Just like the 13, 14 and 15th place corps getting so much better in a given year and not making finals when just the year before they would have . One can get tons better and not improve score wise or even do worse. Which is the heartbreaking part of competition. Edited November 26, 2014 by GUARDLING 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I also enjoy the Phantomettes. I hope they are much improved this coming season because a 9th place finish in guard at Finals like this past summer is not going to cut it. I am not sure what has happened since 2010, 2011, and 2012 when Phantom's guard was 5th, 3rd and 3rd place respectively at Finals, but I am hoping for a better result in 2015. At finals this year, Phantom's guard placed 9th with a score of 17.8 At finals in 2010, Phantom's guard placed 9th with a score of 17.7 I'm not a guard expert. I watch the guard, look for consistency in tosses, try to decipher difficulty and what not, but in the end, I'm just a fan of the caption. Phantom's 2010 show was pretty as well as quite moving. Much more than 2014. Yet from a guard perspective, 2014 just seemed so much better. i didn't wince during tosses "hoping" they would catch them, or during flag spins hoping they would be together. This year the equipment was well handled, the guard sold the theme quite well, flags, uniforms and what not all contributed so well to the show. Yeah - they got 9th this year, but the guard's performance spoke much greater volumes than that placement. Like I said, I'm not a guard expert....but I'm still trying to figure it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted November 26, 2014 Author Share Posted November 26, 2014 Dear Mr. Lincoln, When you figure out color guard scoring, please let the rest in on the secret. Unfortunately a dozen years back, the cg caucus at the dci rules congress voted (and the directors bashfully agreed) to accept for DCI whatever was the current WGI interpretations and emphases, even with all WGI's foibles.. As a result, the DCI caption has been indecipherable to the non-illuminati ever since. Perfect scores are given even when squads don't catch what they have tossed. Emphasis is on amorphous dance which has no black/white/written in stone consistency but is based more of "feelings" rather than "mere" technique. Now granted some guards seem to be throwing (and catching) "9s" while other guards uniformly catch perfect "7s." But one judge may "feel" comfortable that it fits and another may "feel" the awkwardness and call it over the top. Like many things in the field of psychology, two experts can see exactly the same thing and come to two diametrically opposed conclusions. Go figure. BITD, I participated in the early discussions, rules congresses, instruction, judging, and hosting of WGI. The universe has moved to different galaxies since then. Today I totally ignore the CG scoring and just enjoy the performance. The guards have become 1/3 of the drum corps today. To disregard such a large contribution is by far too unfortunate, but I am able to sleep without stomach gas. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Dear Mr. Lincoln, When you figure out color guard scoring, please let the rest in on the secret. Unfortunately a dozen years back, the cg caucus at the dci rules congress voted (and the directors bashfully agreed) to accept for DCI whatever was the current WGI interpretations and emphases, even with all WGI's foibles.. As a result, the DCI caption has been indecipherable to the non-illuminati ever since. Perfect scores are given even when squads don't catch what they have tossed. Emphasis is on amorphous dance which has no black/white/written in stone consistency but is based more of "feelings" rather than "mere" technique. Now granted some guards seem to be throwing (and catching) "9s" while other guards uniformly catch perfect "7s." But one judge may "feel" comfortable that it fits and another may "feel" the awkwardness and call it over the top. Like many things in the field of psychology, two experts can see exactly the same thing and come to two diametrically opposed conclusions. Go figure. BITD, I participated in the early discussions, rules congresses, instruction, judging, and hosting of WGI. The universe has moved to different galaxies since then. Today I totally ignore the CG scoring and just enjoy the performance. The guards have become 1/3 of the drum corps today. To disregard such a large contribution is by far too unfortunate, but I am able to sleep without stomach gas. In theory it should be possible to judge dance in the same way brass and percussion are judged. Technique and expressiveness, both judged in both difficulty and execution (whatever the terms used). So, an experienced dance teacher-judge should be able to distinguish techniques that are more difficult than less difficult, and techniques that are performed more consistently correctly vs. less consistently. Similarly, a good judge should be able to evaluate the expressiveness of a move in the same way any other GE judge would, how subtle and challenging is the mood, and how well they are pulling it off. When people criticize "WGI style judging" it always smacks to me a bit of "They used to just count the spins, now they have to judge moods. Therefore it's nebulous and arbitrary." I don't think any dance teacher would say that. Or brass or percussion teacher, for that matter. The question is: do you think color guards should be evaluated as complete dancers, or merely as precision equipment spinners and tossers? I use the word merely deliberately. Or is the criticism something completely different? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 In theory it should be possible to judge dance in the same way brass and percussion are judged. Technique and expressiveness, both judged in both difficulty and execution (whatever the terms used). So, an experienced dance teacher-judge should be able to distinguish techniques that are more difficult than less difficult, and techniques that are performed more consistently correctly vs. less consistently. Similarly, a good judge should be able to evaluate the expressiveness of a move in the same way any other GE judge would, how subtle and challenging is the mood, and how well they are pulling it off. When people criticize "WGI style judging" it always smacks to me a bit of "They used to just count the spins, now they have to judge moods. Therefore it's nebulous and arbitrary." I don't think any dance teacher would say that. Or brass or percussion teacher, for that matter. The question is: do you think color guards should be evaluated as complete dancers, or merely as precision equipment spinners and tossers? I use the word merely deliberately. Or is the criticism something completely different? Actually it really isnt that hard. All one has to do is let go of the way we used to think the guard caption was judged. First perfect scores in ANY caption, horns , drums, etc etc does not mean perfect, so a guard can also have a drop and still earn a perfect score. All a perfect score mean is that a judge ran out of numbers and a particular corps was just the best compared to the others. The level of corps today from bottom to top is very high so high scores are driven from the bottom up. The bottom pushes the high scores at the top. Now and this is a hard one for some. Higher tosses, harder work doesn't necessarily mean better. Toss after toss after toss after toss doesn't necessarily mean effective . There are many more creative ways to create effect today and this becomes a part of the elements. I can go on and on but I think you get the picture. Is it subjective? Sure, but so is the whole thing visually, musically guard, etc etc, Otherwise were back to the tic system and that ( although it wasn't supposed to be ) was even worse and even more subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 At finals this year, Phantom's guard placed 9th with a score of 17.8 At finals in 2010, Phantom's guard placed 9th with a score of 17.7 I'm not a guard expert. I watch the guard, look for consistency in tosses, try to decipher difficulty and what not, but in the end, I'm just a fan of the caption. Phantom's 2010 show was pretty as well as quite moving. Much more than 2014. Yet from a guard perspective, 2014 just seemed so much better. i didn't wince during tosses "hoping" they would catch them, or during flag spins hoping they would be together. This year the equipment was well handled, the guard sold the theme quite well, flags, uniforms and what not all contributed so well to the show. Yeah - they got 9th this year, but the guard's performance spoke much greater volumes than that placement. Like I said, I'm not a guard expert....but I'm still trying to figure it out. It doesn't mean you arent right. Like anything it also depends on other guards and how they were and where a corps fits in. As I said they can be even much better than last year and score the same. Just because a guard or corps for that matter is light years better than the year before doesnt mean they will go up in placement or score. That's the nature of a scoring system and competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 It doesn't mean you arent right. Like anything it also depends on other guards and how they were and where a corps fits in. As I said they can be even much better than last year and score the same. Just because a guard or corps for that matter is light years better than the year before doesnt mean they will go up in placement or score. That's the nature of a scoring system and competition. I know you are right. I'm not qualified to comment on scores anyway - for any caption. I'm happy when a corps' performance is entertaining. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 I know you are right. I'm not qualified to comment on scores anyway - for any caption. I'm happy when a corps' performance is entertaining. Sometimes thats the best way to look at the activity or any competition for that matter. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Actually it really isnt that hard. All one has to do is let go of the way we used to think the guard caption was judged. First perfect scores in ANY caption, horns , drums, etc etc does not mean perfect, so a guard can also have a drop and still earn a perfect score. All a perfect score mean is that a judge ran out of numbers and a particular corps was just the best compared to the others. The level of corps today from bottom to top is very high so high scores are driven from the bottom up. The bottom pushes the high scores at the top. Now and this is a hard one for some. Higher tosses, harder work doesn't necessarily mean better. Toss after toss after toss after toss doesn't necessarily mean effective . There are many more creative ways to create effect today and this becomes a part of the elements. I can go on and on but I think you get the picture. Is it subjective? Sure, but so is the whole thing visually, musically guard, etc etc, Otherwise were back to the tic system and that ( although it wasn't supposed to be ) was even worse and even more subjective. uh oh guardling be careful, you may trigger another stupid debate over what a perfect score is 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos001 Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 uh oh guardling be careful, you may trigger another stupid debate over what a perfect score is Per Cesario it is "the highest score that night." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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