How hard is it for a corps to make a major move up after July 1? An an

[GUARDLING]

You bet. The cook and athletic trainer might be the two most important people. A corps that is not well fed and fit will flame out from lack of endurance and malnutrition. Season over.

yep. so bottom line " we are all judged " visible on the sheets or not....and its always been like this

[Green Fleurdelis]

AHHHHH but one can also argue is it harder to move up within those top 1-5 than it is from 10th or 12 to 8th or 9th...there are very different dynamics involved IMO

:: smile :: Yes, you could argue that. If you look at the data in my opening post of this thread though it seems that the greater-than-two-position-moves-up are pretty evenly distributed top to bottom.

[GUARDLING]

:: smile :: Yes, you could argue that. If you look at the data in my opening post of this thread though it seems that the greater-than-two-position-moves-up are pretty evenly distributed top to bottom.

Yes..you know I was just kiddin ya. I know you get it

[jwillis35]

You are right. Some foget that even BITD we were taught by adults, a show designed by adults, adults making the decisions on how we move forward or sometimes how we fell. The members take the tools given by staff and run with it or dont. Even if you want to weigh points given directly to the performer none of this is done alone and without good guidance. To dismiss this is irresponsible, insulting to many greats over the years and is not a clear vision IMO on how this activity works and has worked over the years...

Totally agree. The argument comes up from time to time, and BRASSO points are all well taken and true. I'm not sure when it happened, but maybe late 90s or early 2000s there was a lot of dialogue about "let the kids decide things on the field, not the designers." That call-to-arms arose from those who wanted a competitive field where all corps had an equal chance to win, and that the judging sheets would reward ONLY what the kids did on the field.

It's a noble argument for those that want complete parity in drum corps. To be honest, DCI is probably more like Major League Baseball (MLB) than the NFL or NBA. Revenue sharing likely only exists with stadium gate fees, cinecast profits, web streaming, and maybe DVD and CD sales. Otherwise, the richest and most tradition-laden corps can buy the best instructors, designers, buses, trucks, instruments, and they can travel in style and tour longer and farther. These are the corps that attract the top college players who those designers will write for and for whom the best instructors will teach.

I simply don't see a better solution. As you said, drum corps shows from any time period, but especially from the 70s onward, had adults creating the content and teaching, and the kids performed. The Tic system was just so focused on nailing the marchers for any little mistake that it made us feel that the kids on the field were deciding things. But in the long run, all those titles won by SCV and BD in the 70s and early 80s were the product of great design and content.

Edited June 25, 2015 by jwillis35

[ShortAndFast]

But yes, for the most part design will win it's fair share when performance levels are similar. And that's how it should be. That part of the judging is what makes the instructors and designers for each corps better at their craft, which in turn leads to these fun and competitive seasons.

If the argument is that "the same corps keep winning at the top" then we must factor in a few other variables: age, experience, talent. For some, you could have a fantastic show with very good performance levels and still not be able to beat the Blue Devils. Ultimately their performers are going to take whatever product they were given to a much higher level. Their designers can write for that super-high, box 5 level. Their instructors can teach to that level, and their performers can ultimately master that level. For most other drum corps there is no shame is losing to this. Only a few corps can compete with BD, and in those few cases it's a struggle. Why? The experience of their performers.

And even when performances aren't all that similar, design still tends to win its share. The reason is pretty simple: the corps have chosen to make it that way.

There are lots of different ways to judge a drum corps show. Up until 1983, the tick system was more focused on the on-the-field performance and less interested in design. As you'd expect, that produced a lot of night-to-night variance in scores and placements. The corps have chosen to move to a system that's more focused on design, especially with the changes in the GE caption. And indeed, post-1984 there are fewer placement changes and movement through the season. One could presumably come up with lots of other systems that would tilt the balance in different ways.

I don't think there's any right or wrong way to do it, and the current system seems to match what the corps more-or-less want. To DCI's credit, it does a very consistent job of evaluating corps on the agreed rubric. People love to complain about how Judge X has it out for Corps Y, but that just shows that most of the time the judging community is mostly in agreement and we notice the exceptions when it's not.

As a fan, I'd like to see more variance in scoring. As an example, DCI has a very strong percussion judging crew, and percussion scores are fun to watch because they are not predictable. You really get the sense that the judges are reacting to the night-to-night performances of some very excellent lines. The counterexample is GE, where the scoring is predictable and often times the placements barely change during the season.

[Green Fleurdelis]

And even when performances aren't all that similar, design still tends to win its share. The reason is pretty simple: the corps have chosen to make it that way.

There are lots of different ways to judge a drum corps show. Up until 1983, the tick system was more focused on the on-the-field performance and less interested in design. As you'd expect, that produced a lot of night-to-night variance in scores and placements. The corps have chosen to move to a system that's more focused on design, especially with the changes in the GE caption. And indeed, post-1984 there are fewer placement changes and movement through the season. One could presumably come up with lots of other systems that would tilt the balance in different ways.

I don't think there's any right or wrong way to do it, and the current system seems to match what the corps more-or-less want. To DCI's credit, it does a very consistent job of evaluating corps on the agreed rubric. People love to complain about how Judge X has it out for Corps Y, but that just shows that most of the time the judging community is mostly in agreement and we notice the exceptions when it's not.

As a fan, I'd like to see more variance in scoring. As an example, DCI has a very strong percussion judging crew, and percussion scores are fun to watch because they are not predictable. You really get the sense that the judges are reacting to the night-to-night performances of some very excellent lines. The counterexample is GE, where the scoring is predictable and often times the placements barely change during the season.

I rarely quote an entire post, but in this case I will -- just to say "nicely done: clear, concise, cogent". Plus it helps that I agree with you. :)

[GUARDLING]

Totally agree. The argument comes up from time to time, and BRASSO points are all well taken and true. I'm not sure when it happened, but maybe late 90s or early 2000s there was a lot of dialogue about "let the kids decide things on the field, not the designers." That call-to-arms arose from those who wanted a competitive field where all corps had an equal chance to win, and that the judging sheets would reward ONLY what the kids did on the field.

It's a noble argument for those that want complete parity in drum corps. To be honest, DCI is probably more like Major League Baseball (MLB) than the NFL or NBA. Revenue sharing likely only exists with stadium gate fees, cinecast profits, web streaming, and maybe DVD and CD sales. Otherwise, the richest and most tradition-laden corps can buy the best instructors, designers, buses, trucks, instruments, and they can travel in style and tour longer and farther. These are the corps that attract the top college players who those designers will write for and for whom the best instructors will teach.

I simply don't see a better solution. As you said, drum corps shows from any time period, but especially from the 70s onward, had adults creating the content and teaching, and the kids performed. The Tic system was just so focused on nailing the marchers for any little mistake that it made us feel that the kids on the field were deciding things. But in the long run, all those titles won by SCV and BD in the 70s and early 80s were the product of great design and content.

Yes you are so right. With this argument sometimes ( and believe me I have come across a few of these over the years , some who I marched with , even some family members from the pre DCI era ) Often it's some kind of a who got left behind, who's opinion didnt have much weight and now try to be vocal, sometimes someone who just looks to blame or divide sometimes a royal pain in the ### from childhood....lol..( the bitter betty's ).and on rare occasions someone who makes some sense.

Drum Corps in many cases is so much the same as the past ( if one is willing to look ) and in some cases not at all the same. I tend to look at the whole thing as way more involved..lol There's the good and bad of that , like in anything.

I look back sometimes, ( not often , i tend to be a look forward person ) but I still get chills at 27th, PR, Cadets,Anaheim Kingsmen, Argone Reb. SCV, BD , MAdison , old Kilties ( great rifle line )and a few others but the talent, thought process, implementation , drive , creativeness of today , who could have imagined. Well actually there are a few who did BITD and I'm very grateful for them and for the activity as well and the influence they personally had on me.

Edited June 26, 2015 by GUARDLING

[HornTeacher]

lol..i just looked on how that read...lol

Yes. And in that vein, it could actually be taken a couple of different ways...neither of which, I'm sure, was your intent...and of which we will remain mum.

[drumcorpsfever]

There isn't anything too magical about the July 1st date. Although a margin of 3 points is pretty significant either way. What will be very interesting is the July 11 regional in Minnesota. I get the sense that this year will be more open to position changes one through 12. I don't think anyone can predict with any certainty who will win the gold this year. Plus, if you consider BD (never out of the top 3, a stong Bluecoats show; Crown's brass, guard, and remarkably improving drums, a strong SCV; and The Cadets. There's should be much excitement and anticipation for the possibilities.

Let's see what the standings look like at the end of the day on July 11th. From there, who knows? Remember 2011 when most everyone thought the Cavies were a lock for the gold out of the gate? The Cadets started in 4th that year and ended up on top in Indy. I get the sense that we're in for some rocky placement results througout this season.

[jwillis35]

The Cadets started in 4th that [2011] year and ended up on top in Indy. I get the sense that we're in for some rocky placement results througout this season.

Good point. One thing to keep in mind about the 2011 Cadets. First off, it's not like they were running 4th place for the first half of the season. Shortly after the first show of the season in Texas (Denton I think), the Cadets went west and won immediately. They won every show in California over BD and SCV. They were very strong out of the gate with a mostly completed show that just needed some polish, a few tweaks, and some fine-tuning of their story line. Secondly, there were many of us on DCP that strongly felt that once Cadets cleaned, the title was theirs. It was clear they had the most dynamic show of the contenders with the most GE.

So it's not like they were some darkhorse that ran in 4th all season. From the time of their dominance in California early that summer I believe many of us felt they were the corps to beat.