saxfreq1128 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) That's my feeling as well. When they first announced what the bulk of the music would be, and then posted the video of the orchestra playing it at hyper speed, I thought it had great potential. The piece has such anger and other powerful emotions in it, but I'm not seeing that reflected much visually. They used a really bland, generic sans-serif font for the the numbers on the silks, backdrops, etc, so you're not getting any added personality there. The guard, in very catalog-ish outfits, is more technical than emotive, so that is not a big source of expression either. It seems like the music is being used mainly for complexity, tempo and raw power, which is all well and good, but with such great source material, why not really tap into what is already there for the taking? If you just wanted to do a show about counting to 10, pretty much anything would do.Agree -- especially about the guard. Contra the OP, I actually think the Cadets' style is perfectly fine as is. I think what's important is that each corps have a distinctive creative identity, which the Cadets absolutely have, and that they learn how to sell it, which is where they fall behind, for me. I actually don't like the Angels and Demons show at all; dark-into-light shows are played out, and the drum break just sort of kills the momentum every time I watch it. But if the question is whether or not they sold it well, obviously they were the corps to beat. They need more shows that they can sell, which is the opposite of being more like the Blue Devils et al. Edited July 4, 2015 by saxfreq1128 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I guess I will pass that info on to my wife.kids, and the 20 or so people who are offended by the junk you don't see. Maybe you need to call EyeLab lol. Better not watch the sprinters at a track meet. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) Corps do redos and rehashes for one simple reason.... they work. They work for both fans and judges alike. We often hear people say they like the watch and listen to " new innovation ". But what people say and actually do can be two different things. All research studies show that people prefer the familiar, over the unfamiliar, despite what they say. Judges respond to the same stimulai, and act accordingly as well. This is why it is more oftentimes than not the familiar that is rewarded by both fans and judges alike. Star of Indiana did not win in 1993. It was unfamiliar to both judges and fans alike. It is familiar now to us, as we have seen and heard it dozens of times now. So it is now familiar to us. But did that help the marchers of Star in 1993 ? No, it didn't. So lets be careful when we hear people claim they want more of the unfamilar, or " new innovation " from Corps. I just listed about a dozen examples on this previous page where what people ( including judges ) tell us, and what they actually DID, were two entirely different things altogether. Corps should not be criticised for doing some of the famiiar. Not when the famiilar is what most people, judges included, actually prefer and reward when we come right down to it. Edited July 4, 2015 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxfreq1128 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Star of Indiana did not win in 1993. It was unfamiliar to both judges and fans alike. It is familiar now to us, as we have seen and heard it dozens of times now. So it is now familiar to us. But did that help the marchers of Star in 1993 ? No, it didn't. Did audiences even like that show back then? What were the crowds like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadet_mellos Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 BRASSO initially posted that antiques are one man's junk and another's treasure. (Wanted the multiple quotes but my 1st attempt failed. Will do it manually here.) While I agree with you that innovation doesn't necessarily equal "better," I do have to say you are a master of using irrelevant points to back up your arguments.Yes. Things that are old tend to end up being rare because not many have it anymore. That's why they sell for more.As for your point about audience numbers, that's irrelevant too. I've said this over and over, but you can't attribute the fall of the number of people who follow DCI solely to changes in the drum corps rule book. I'm with BRASSO on his junk-treasure analogy. I would go so far as to say it is highly relevant, not irrelevant. I haven't made it all of the way through this thread yet (there is a lot of it) so apologies if someone already posted my sentiments by now.Cadets are getting flak for traditional uniforms and movement. Many devalue what they are doing and would like them to junk it. But some of Cadets' attributes are timeless and the more the other corps morph, the more valuable the Cadets tradition becomes. Don't throw it out; tap into the tradition and execute an insanely difficult drill and music book. Take it to #1 in 2015 and show the world the real value of what was cast aside.Others like Maneuvah want them to go deeper with their 10 theme and build in more powerful metaphors (would be surprised if they have the stomach to redesign the ending roll out; hasn't been learned yet but they wrote it). I like how you are trying to push them over the top, Maneuvah. You are a rebel, I like what you are attempting, I can't decipher the Greek photos you posted yet, but don't dumb down your posts for me; we need to raise up to your level, instead), The Cadets could use your brain at the highest levels, and I hope they can get you into Hop and his senior people earlier in the process going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) Agree -- especially about the guard. Contra the OP, I actually think the Cadets' style is perfectly fine as is. I think what's important is that each corps have a distinctive creative identity, which the Cadets absolutely have, and that they learn how to sell it, which is where they fall behind, for me. I actually don't like the Angels and Demons show at all; dark-into-light shows are played out, and the drum break just sort of kills the momentum every time I watch it. But if the question is whether or not they sold it well, obviously they were the corps to beat. They need more shows that they can sell, which is the opposite of being more like the Blue Devils et al. Interesting. And I wonder, with the style they have, are they limited to a rep that only enhances the uniform? Can a contradiction be built into the uniform, as it was with A&D to your eye, and not lose the identity of the corps while also giving them the "approved" creative license to try something outside of the stricture of their uniform? Isn't the issue really one of stagnation in the activity in general, and maybe Cadets are guilty of it as much as any. Isn't it all a little boring now? Scripted, again? Compulsory body movement and "transitions" to be "in the game" with those at the top. Pre-show, opener, ballad, compulsory triple-tonging and bug-squashing, WGI-ish tarps to fill in creativity voids to attain GE. I'd bet pretty confidently that it's felt up and down the ranks of corps directors, too. Is there more to all of this stuff that's actually better at selling tickets to fund corps to do shows where we sell tickets to fund corps... Edited July 4, 2015 by garfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) Did audiences even like that show back then? What were the crowds like? Judges found it unfamilar, as I just said... and the Cadets won it all in 1993 ( doing more of the familiar ). Many of the audiences in 1993 did not care for that show. It was unfamilar to them. Many years later now, more appreciate it much better. Thats because, over time, it is now become more familar to them. But the ones who have not seen or heard it since 1993 ( and have left ), my guess still don't like that show. Thats because it still remains unfamiliar to them. This natural human reaction to things is not left at the stadium gates for both judges and fans alike. Both judges and fans alike, respond much more favorably to the familar over the unfamilar in real life situations ( despite what they might SAY ). Its in all of our DNA if you will. Edited July 4, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) ... regarding the familiar and the unfamilar : Those who admire and appreciate Star of Indiana of 1993, tend to look at this from the brass, percussion, guard, and innovation side. This is their familar zone. But how many know that Star of Indiana came in 4th at Finals in Visual Field Execution in 1993 ? That field execution lense might be unfamiliar to many of the admirers as they look at this innovative show... even today, perhaps. Cadets won not only the Finals in 1993, they won the Semi Finals that year ( Star, the Quarters ).. and with a completely different set of DCI Judges too. We assume the Judges know what they are doing, right ? Some of those DCI judges from 1993 still judge today. We know this right ? Edited July 4, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NakedEye Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 They need more shows that they can sell, which is the opposite of being more like the Blue Devils et al. The question is, though: has the definition of "selling it," changed over time? What BD, Crown, Cavaliers and now Bluecoats do now is crossing over into a multimedia production. Cadets are really presenting something pretty close to what they did when they were dominating - a fairly rigid persona that focused mainly on technicality. Now during the 89-96 period, their guard was absolutely outstanding and really added a great deal of expression, but most other years, it was a technical display. At the time, that style was the norm, and they were the clear masters of it, but with others branching off to in some ways create a new form of entertainment, with more effect created by production values than precision, what would Cadets need to do make their approach the go-to choice again? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NakedEye Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Did audiences even like that show back then? What were the crowds like? All during their first tour, the audiences in the South sat on their hands in stunned silence when it ended. By mid-season they were getting confused applause and a lot of grumbling. Only at finals did people really react because it was the most emotional performance I had ever seen. They absolutely made it work, and even if you didn't understand or didn't like what they were doing, you know you had just experienced something incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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