garfield Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 and their biggest stadium is a soccer field that holds 7000 or so concert side with no roof, and one end of the stadium open air. DCi's bggest shows are in stadiums that hold well over 20,000 concert side with a roof on top. And if you sit up top at Lucas as I did part of semifinals in 2010, with brass blasting and amps cranked to Spinal Tap volumes, you hear rimshots. The rest sounds like mud......and one of the corps I watched up there got a 19.7 in drums at finals. 15 yard penalty, and loss of down, for use of common sense in a thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 15 yard penalty, and loss of down, for use of common sense in a thread. good then i'll add more so I can get the personal foul....... the corps want the judge there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnitzel Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 http://www.marchingroundtable.com/eku-marching-arts-research-team/field-percussion-study/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 some of the names listed on there aren't even percussion people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 http://www.marchingroundtable.com/eku-marching-arts-research-team/field-percussion-study/ This "study" is an absolute farce in its presumptions and in its conclusions, even if you can rationalize the researchers methods. I haven't read any "peer reviews" of this work and I likely won't, choosing to dismiss it as quackery and pointy-headed intellectualism run amok. If there is "settled science" here that could, in the instructor's own words, "...findings here could influence the marching arts activity...", I hope it was given its due and promptly round-filed as useless. To wit: DCI provided live streams to a team of volunteers. Those shows were in the last two weeks of the 2013 season. Researchers were tasked with observing the drum judge and, every 5 seconds, to note the position of the judge in relation to a defined spot (more later), then and note it in an online survey. The potentially refuting issue here is the simple and physical act of that request. Presumably experienced musicians watching two browsers, one of the show and the other of the survey table, clicking buttons, navigating the table up and down, up and down, click. 120 times troughout a "live broadcast" that can't be stopped. Is it purely coincidental that the first choice on the survey was "IT" (in transit) time? So participants were "encouraged" to watch "a minute of the show" and then pause to note judge positions every 5 seconds. Sounds like a reasonable suggestion, but I sure can't figure out how to do that without missing some observation time with each pause. (Nothing is noted about watching the rebroadcast and taking notation.) This possibly explains why it was necessary to gather so many opinions of an unrefutable observation? Were they all watching on their own time, in uncontrolled conditions where a fraction of a second for a moving judge could be measured in feet, not inches? In this case, the difference is crucial, and here's why... NOT THE "G-SPOT" The observers were asked to identify the judge in relation to "...a hypothetical spot formed at the apex of an equilateral triangle created with the performing segment as the base" between the line being judged and the press box. Survey creators did not identify how to measure if the line is angled across the lateral of the field. Survey creators did not control for when the line is split in two, nor when they are stacked, nor when the line is crunched up tight back to back or shoulder-to-shoulder. A ten-snare line puts the "G-Spot" exactly where? Is that point of "maximum sonic clarity" moved closer to the line if there only five players? Who defined "maximum sonic clarity" and based on what? According to the presumptions of the study, the maximum sonic impression is observed at a point exactly the same distance from the line as is the physical length of the line, presumably centered on the line, and anything away from that spot is classified as "In Transit" time. For God's sake, need I even go on? This is ludicrous. To call this "science" is like saying "Welcome to Howdy-Doody Time!". I'll stop here and leave you kind folks with a thought: Anyone who thinks a drum judge, or even a "drum guy", needs to be located at this survey's "G-Spot" in order to get a good read of the line doesn't understand drums, drumming, or drummers. My son and I can judge a battery line from across the parking lot at finals to determine the quality of line we want to go watch. We can even identify with good accuracy a line by name (ours is just a game, not "scientific"). The whole concept of "maximum sonic clarity" is silly. A adequate drum judge can be running across the field to catch the snares while finishing a comment to the pit, while presently, in this microsecond listening to the splits going on in the bass line and watching the crazy sticking of the tenors. As he approaches the snares he's still listening to the gliss from the pit and complimenting the tenors and basses. To suggest that the drum judge isn't giving the kids "a good read" unless he's standing in that Sweet G-Spot does a terrible disservice to the work of the drum guys who can also judge. I encourage each and every one of you, and DCI, to read this study to see its folly. If this work is used in any way to support an argument to move the drum judge upstairs I want you all to know what buffoons those decision makers truly are. To influence DCI policy in any way, with this flawed analysis is laughable. At least this study author did get it right by pointing out the significant difference in "stage size" between DCI and indoor winter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 http://www.marchingroundtable.com/eku-marching-arts-research-team/field-percussion-study/ So, I reject your reality and substitute my own. I wonder, are you a percussionist? What's your interest in this issue? You seem to suggest you agree with this study by using it as a basis for your opinion on where the drum judge should be, is that a correct assessment? You seem impassioned by it and I'm just curious as to why, especially if you're a drummer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onthe50 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I'll stop here and leave you kind folks with a thought: Anyone who thinks a drum judge, or even a "drum guy", needs to be located at this survey's "G-Spot" in order to get a good read of the line doesn't understand drums, drumming, or drummers. My son and I can judge a battery line from across the parking lot at finals to determine the quality of line we want to go watch. We can even identify with good accuracy a line by name (ours is just a game, not "scientific"). The whole concept of "maximum sonic clarity" is silly. A adequate drum judge can be running across the field to catch the snares while finishing a comment to the pit, while presently, in this microsecond listening to the splits going on in the bass line and watching the crazy sticking of the tenors. As he approaches the snares he's still listening to the gliss from the pit and complimenting the tenors and basses. To suggest that the drum judge isn't giving the kids "a good read" unless he's standing in that Sweet G-Spot does a terrible disservice to the work of the drum guys who can also judge. If you have ever been on the field teaching or judging, you know that positioning on the field is a major consideration when it comes to clarity. Being "in position" is a major training item for field judges and the instructors will demand that the judge be in position for proper credit. Maybe the DCI instructors will never decide to relocate the percussion judge. Don't think they have not considered it especially with the success of the percussion 2 judge. There are not many differences between the top few lines so is having a field judge the only way to discern those differences? Maybe. You still need to consider the opportunity to judge the entire section for 100% of the time without seeing the little green man running around the field while we think the corps are providing the ultimate in total package production value. There are flaws in any survey including this one. Discussion of relocating the percussion judge have been in motion for a few years before this survey was even done. The debate over relocating the percussion judge has its merits even if people like you refuse to even consider them. We can agree to disagree and that's fine with me. Let's continue to be open to new and fresh ideas, some may work and some won't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 If you have ever been on the field teaching or judging, you know that positioning on the field is a major consideration when it comes to clarity. Being "in position" is a major training item for field judges and the instructors will demand that the judge be in position for proper credit. Maybe the DCI instructors will never decide to relocate the percussion judge. Don't think they have not considered it especially with the success of the percussion 2 judge. There are not many differences between the top few lines so is having a field judge the only way to discern those differences? Maybe. You still need to consider the opportunity to judge the entire section for 100% of the time without seeing the little green man running around the field while we think the corps are providing the ultimate in total package production value. There are flaws in any survey including this one. Discussion of relocating the percussion judge have been in motion for a few years before this survey was even done. The debate over relocating the percussion judge has its merits even if people like you refuse to even consider them. We can agree to disagree and that's fine with me. Let's continue to be open to new and fresh ideas, some may work and some won't. Yes, I've been on the field instructing battery. In fact, many times I instructed from behind the battery, intentionally because the "clarity" of one line was overpowering my instruction of a different section. The sound from behind the battery is different, but is it less clarity? Don't think so. I'm absolutely not opposed to the discussion at all. I am adamantly opposed to discussion that includes quackery like this being taken seriously. This survey doesn't have flaws, it has gaping holes. I'm all for a discussion that uses serious data to make serious decisions. This data isn't even rank under that qualifier. I don't need, and I don't think the activity needs, to think about judging all sections all at once 100% of the time. That type of judging is not what has brought marching percussion to the level it is today, and I firmly contend that removing the field judge will result in a lowering of playing quality for all of marching percussion. Perc2 in the booth to capture overall Perc GE? Fine. But execution is the lifeblood of the drumline and execution can only judge a line's hands, playing quality, and ensemble balance by being on the field. IMO. And again I'll ask: What is the motivation of the effort to remove the field perc judge? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Holland Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 There's a tape somewhere of a judge getting mowed over in 1998 when a judge stood in the wrong spot during either Madison or Cavs show. I can't remember but I do remember going "oof, I could feel that..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cf144 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I have an old T-shirt that I got from one of the souvie trucks years ago based on the old Master-Card ad campaign: "Gloves - $5; Tour Fees - $500; Running over a judge - Priceless." :tounge2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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