wallace Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I don't know. The percussion judges have been the most consistent with their scoring in recent memory. There's very rarely any hint of bias. They're solid. Perhaps in the early season it would be wise for them to remain on the sideline, but by finals they should be able to discern where to safely be in the show. Keep them on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I judged brass on the West Coast in the mid-1980's. As has probably been beaten to death, a caption judge MUST be on the field to get "under the hood" and really hear/see what's going on. The top horn lines sound virtually identical in quality from a distance, and the most minute and subtle differences are what seperate one from the other. All that said, it wasn't nearly as hazardous back then, but there were some hair-raising times out there on the field. Judged a show in Bakersfield, CA in 1986, in which I almost got run over twice. First was Blue Devils' contra line sliding rapidly down the front sideline (props to the contra player that yelled "look out!"), and next was Vanguard on a very fast drill move that swept across the field in a very odd direction for the time. Drum judge Jim Whobrey signalled me, I started moving his way, then the move picked up speed quickly and his waving got more frantic. Had to jog out the back of the corps and around the side. That was an unforgettable show. :)I can only imagine the hazards of the current day. Some, but not all shows are so busy that it would truly be hazardous/suicidal to go out there. I notice that the field percussion and brass judges tend to stalk the front sideline a great deal of the time, and only venture out onto the field when it's wide open or a ballad. The great (IMHO) judge Allen Kristensen is one that isn't afraid to get out there no matter what. In the past, there was sort of a "sweet spot" in front of snare lines that you could hang out in...now it can disappear in a hurry. As the quality goes up, it's going to get harder to evaluate from the field but even more important to do so. An interesting conundrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 The truth is they are a nuisance and should be relegated to the sideline. In 1996 Crossmen a drum judge took out three contras, myself included, when we were backing up while he had his back to us. The four us ended up in a doggypile at the end of the opener. Slightly comical, but the truth is someone could get injured. Fortunately the bell of my horn was the only casualty. The only reason I gave you one "like" for this is because I can't give you a THOUSAND! I fail to see how DCI can't get into the 21st century on this. I'm afraid it will only change after a judge causes a marching member to trip and get injured. Then DCI will act surprised and say how they just couldn't have anticipated such an problem. They already have experience with off-the-field judges in early season judging panels, and they always seem to be able to properly adjudicate. DCI could change that TODAY if they chose to. They CHOOSE to stay in the 1960's. They need new leadership than can bring them in the 21st century. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) As a quick aside, a funny observation :..... in the pre DCI, DCA days, one of the implied responsibilities for the Drum Majors, particularly with the Senior Corps back then, was to purposefully move between the field judge and the Corps section to purposely try and obscure the field judge from getting a good look at the ( for example ) drumline. It became a veritable cat and mouse game between the DM and the Field judge. This was before the age of large Drum Major podiums. DM's would know beforehand who the judges would be for that show, and the DM ( or Corps Drector ) would decide which field judge the DM would try and protect which of the corps sections. The DM would direct the music of the Corps of course, but when the Corps would go backfield, the DM would quickly move to a spot... different spot each show... to get between that field judge and the Corps section that judge was assigned to judge. Judges knew this long standing " custom " and would have their eye out for DM's doing this, and move accordingly. The fans would chuckle as they knew the DM would be moving some spot, and would watch this cat and mouse game with interest. Judges played along with this long standing custom schtick, but it was also very clear that if a DM bumped a judge in such DM maneuverings, that the Corps would be penalized 2 points for intentionally bumping a judge. I don't recall a DM ever bumping a judge in this cat and mouse maneuvering, resulting in a penalty. But fans always got a kick out of watching the DM do whatever they could to get the sight lines of the judge not as optimum as that judge might have wanted. This was the age of the " Tic System ", where if a drummer made a mistake in their playing, a tenth deduction off the maximum allotment in that caption would be the result. But if the judge did not SEE the mistake, the judge could not deduct that tenth. So one of the many secondary role responsibilities of the DM was to make the judge's eye sight not as keen as that judge would prefer it to be whenever the situation presented itself to that DM during the competition performance. ( lol!) Edited July 17, 2015 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Might you share the source data, or point to where it can be seen? So you're suggesting the data shows that judges only judge about 3% of what the snare line plays? Does anyone actually believe that number is true? You will have the right to demand someone show you their data, when you produce the data to support your made-up assertion that the tenors and basses carry the scoring for the battery. Ridiculous. Don't waste your time arguing with me, simply produce your data. To convince me, the data must have face validity, content validity and reliability, all elementary elements of valid data. There should be a baseline and information on time, within years and between years. I already know you can't, because there is none. +++ Neither side to this argument will be swayed by the other. It's time for DCI to show some leadership on the safety of kids, take a vote, have everybody raise their hand on their own side, and the majority rules. My vote is in favor of the marcher's safety and an understanding of 21st century drill while adjudicating percussion. What's your vote? Edited July 17, 2015 by wvu80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 You will have the right to demand someone show you their data, when you produce the data to support your made-up assertion that the tenors and basses carry the scoring for the battery. Ridiculous. Don't waste your time arguing with me, simply produce your data. To convince me, the data must have face validity, content validity and reliability, all elementary elements of valid data. There should be a baseline and information on time, within years and between years. I already know you can't, because there is none. +++ Neither side to this argument will be swayed by the other. It's time for DCI to show some leadership on the safety of kids, take a vote, have everybody raise their hand on their own side, and the majority rules. My vote is in favor of the marcher's safety and an understanding of 21st century drill while adjudicating percussion. What's your vote? Wow. Context my friend. Context. To whom I responded made a reference to a study and (I thought) I nicely asked to see it. I'm not demanding anything. I have no intention of arguing with you, and I have no intention of producing any data especially when I haven't been asked to. He was referencing a peer-reviewed study (later linked in the thread) and I cited none. Surely you see the difference. Please continue reading the thread, especially the parts after he did produce a link. I'll wait... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 You will have the right to demand someone show you their data, when you produce the data to support your made-up assertion that the tenors and basses carry the scoring for the battery. Ridiculous. Don't waste your time arguing with me, simply produce your data. To convince me, the data must have face validity, content validity and reliability, all elementary elements of valid data. There should be a baseline and information on time, within years and between years. I already know you can't, because there is none. +++ Neither side to this argument will be swayed by the other. It's time for DCI to show some leadership on the safety of kids, take a vote, have everybody raise their hand on their own side, and the majority rules. My vote is in favor of the marcher's safety and an understanding of 21st century drill while adjudicating percussion. What's your vote? While this is a compelling argument, does the data support your contention? How many drum corps contests with perc judges on the field? How many injuries caused by the judge? How many injuries prevented by said judge picking up sticks and mallets (and the occasional snare drum) ) off the field? Drum corps is not a risk-free activity -- even when there are NO judges on the field. So instead of painting the issue black and white, maybe you need to put it into context? For a parent, best way to prevent drum corps injuries to their child is to decline to participate. Putting "marcher's safety" first is probably not the entire story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 The only reason I gave you one "like" for this is because I can't give you a THOUSAND! I fail to see how DCI can't get into the 21st century on this. I'm afraid it will only change after a judge causes a marching member to trip and get injured. Then DCI will act surprised and say how they just couldn't have anticipated such an problem. They already have experience with off-the-field judges in early season judging panels, and they always seem to be able to properly adjudicate. DCI could change that TODAY if they chose to. They CHOOSE to stay in the 1960's. They need new leadership than can bring them in the 21st century. no early shows are in domes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 You will have the right to demand someone show you their data, when you produce the data to support your made-up assertion that the tenors and basses carry the scoring for the battery. Ridiculous. Don't waste your time arguing with me, simply produce your data. To convince me, the data must have face validity, content validity and reliability, all elementary elements of valid data. There should be a baseline and information on time, within years and between years. I already know you can't, because there is none. +++ Neither side to this argument will be swayed by the other. It's time for DCI to show some leadership on the safety of kids, take a vote, have everybody raise their hand on their own side, and the majority rules. My vote is in favor of the marcher's safety and an understanding of 21st century drill while adjudicating percussion. What's your vote? my vote is if your biggest shows of the year are in an environmnt where you can not hear clarity, go where the corps want you to be. as the corps make the rules, it's their say. Imagine Alan hadnt been on the field at finals last year.....how many kids in Crown go down over that drum? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnitzel Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) my vote is if your biggest shows of the year are in an environmnt where you can not hear clarity, go where the corps want you to be. as the corps make the rules, it's their say. Imagine Alan hadnt been on the field at finals last year.....how many kids in Crown go down over that drum? As counterpoint - you actually can hear all voices quite well in the judge's position in LOS and other indoor stadiums - that's why they're there. If the programs are designed, orchestrated, and performed for an audience, shouldn't the assessment also be in that position? In fact, percussion writers are writing things admittedly just for the field judge that serve no musical purpose whatsoever. Also, these comments bout "you can hear anywhere" are just wrong. Not at the level of scrutiny required to differentiate the top percussion sections in DCI - judge a snare line from one end of a form, and see how long you're employed - ridiculous. On field music judging in DCI is superfluous in the 21st Century. Good for bands, with the wide variety of skills and less-mature players in need of input. The state-of-the-art in battery playing is and has been WGI for a few years. There's no judge running around the floor getting an anyone's way trying to get in a sound focus. And, a sound focus is essential for sampling precision, quality of sound, musical detailing, etc.. They're very directional instruments. As to the dropped Crown drum - every other performer has to pick up their own stuff, why not a snare? Had Allan not been there, the kid would have taken care of it. Who picks up dropped rifles, flags, and sabres? Think they only drop stuff in performance? I for one am not comfortable with ranking state-of-the-art batterys with such a low sample size. No other performance assessment system would tolerate such mathematical ambiguity for rating, let alone ranking. Too much ramdom, no matter what time of the season. Edited July 18, 2015 by Schnitzel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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