Suicidal Judges

[corpsband]

This survey doesn't have flaws, it has gaping holes. I'm all for a discussion that uses serious data to make serious decisions. This data isn't even rank under that qualifier.

Have to agree with this observation. They would have been better off just using "is nearest to" a section instead of the silly triangle. But why not just listen to the tape while you watch a show? You'll hear exactly who the judge is sampling. It's a good idea in theory -- analyzing where the judge is physically located is solid data. But clearly the designer of this research has very little understanding of what a perc judge actually *does*.

Edited July 14, 2015 by corpsband

[WPendergrass]

More a rambling commentary, but I want to stop lurking and chime in for just a second.

Field judges are beneficial, because they sample the individuals. They articulate what remaining individual/section adjudication we have (as we evolve farther and farther from execution based excellence).

Part of being an instructor on field or a judge on field is being able to instruct/sample or judge/sample from pockets on the field within the show. This really is kind of a learned thing but you get really intuitive with it after a while.

So much so, that even someone who is a fat rolly-polly like myself can avoid issues 99.9% of the time.

For every rehearsal day and every show that instructors and judges are on the field, this really isn't a very common issue when you look at how infrequently those parties have "issues" on field (being collisions or otherwise).

Edited July 14, 2015 by WPendergrass

[garfield]

More a rambling commentary, but I want to stop lurking and chime in for just a second.

Field judges are beneficial, because they sample the individuals. They articulate what remaining individual/section adjudication we have (as we evolve farther and farther from execution based excellence).

Part of being an instructor on field or a judge on field is being able to instruct/sample or judge/sample from pockets on the field within the show. This really is kind of a learned thing but you get really intuitive with it after a while.

So much so, that even someone who is a fat rolly-polly like myself can avoid issues 99.9% of the time.

For every rehearsal day and every show that instructors and judges are on the field, this really isn't a very common issue when you look at how infrequently those parties have "issues" on field (being collisions or otherwise).

Your 100th post was a doozie.

Well, because I agree with it maybe, but still.

[GUARDLING]

I wondered back in 2011 the way shows are today how a drum judge does keep up. It's not like the good ole days when drum lines marched up and down the 50. In 2011 with cadets split corps and split drum line ( which was cool ) how do you judge that. Oh well, not a drum person here , dont get most of it..lol....i can easily tell a great one or a real bad one over the years only because i've been around quite some time and guards often work off of drum accents etc etc. many of my HS programs I will work guard with percussion and I have also had 2 wgi percussion medalists . Although It still doesnt make me any expert on percussion..Thats stating it mildly..lol

[84BDsop]

Hell...I always wonder how the field perc judge survived getting trapped in the last BD form in 96...when they formed the puppeteer's crossticks and collapsed the form.

[2000Cadet]

Lol, anyone take a look at the drum judge at the end of Cadets show last night? This dude was running for dear life.

[Madrid]

As someone that runs around the football field chasing drumlines every fall, I can tell you that while it is a bit tricky, it's not that difficult following a line around and giving commentary all while mainting my and the saftey of the performers in mind.

As someone that judges and has taught for a good chunk of time, it is truly difficult to hear the detail and nuance from player-to-player when stuck up in a press box or in the stands. You miss too much as an adjudicator from up there.

The reason there is a Perc 2 judge is to compensate for the tranait time of the Perc 1 judge and to give ample, balanced credit to the Front Ensemble.

I, as a percussionist, going back to my performing days and even now as an instructor, would be supremely bummed if I didn't have that field tape after a performance. It provides insight to the performers and truth for the instructors. As a resource and educational tool it is invaluable!

p.s. Back in my performing days I only hit stationary Visual judges.

[Jeff Ream]

This "study" is an absolute farce in its presumptions and in its conclusions, even if you can rationalize the researchers methods. I haven't read any "peer reviews" of this work and I likely won't, choosing to dismiss it as quackery and pointy-headed intellectualism run amok. If there is "settled science" here that could, in the instructor's own words, "...findings here could influence the marching arts activity...", I hope it was given its due and promptly round-filed as useless. To wit:

DCI provided live streams to a team of volunteers. Those shows were in the last two weeks of the 2013 season. Researchers were tasked with observing the drum judge and, every 5 seconds, to note the position of the judge in relation to a defined spot (more later), then and note it in an online survey.

The potentially refuting issue here is the simple and physical act of that request. Presumably experienced musicians watching two browsers, one of the show and the other of the survey table, clicking buttons, navigating the table up and down, up and down, click. 120 times troughout a "live broadcast" that can't be stopped. Is it purely coincidental that the first choice on the survey was "IT" (in transit) time?

So participants were "encouraged" to watch "a minute of the show" and then pause to note judge positions every 5 seconds. Sounds like a reasonable suggestion, but I sure can't figure out how to do that without missing some observation time with each pause. (Nothing is noted about watching the rebroadcast and taking notation.) This possibly explains why it was necessary to gather so many opinions of an unrefutable observation? Were they all watching on their own time, in uncontrolled conditions where a fraction of a second for a moving judge could be measured in feet, not inches? In this case, the difference is crucial, and here's why...

NOT THE "G-SPOT"

The observers were asked to identify the judge in relation to "...a hypothetical spot formed at the apex of an equilateral triangle created with the performing segment as the base" between the line being judged and the press box. Survey creators did not identify how to measure if the line is angled across the lateral of the field. Survey creators did not control for when the line is split in two, nor when they are stacked, nor when the line is crunched up tight back to back or shoulder-to-shoulder. A ten-snare line puts the "G-Spot" exactly where? Is that point of "maximum sonic clarity" moved closer to the line if there only five players? Who defined "maximum sonic clarity" and based on what?

According to the presumptions of the study, the maximum sonic impression is observed at a point exactly the same distance from the line as is the physical length of the line, presumably centered on the line, and anything away from that spot is classified as "In Transit" time.

For God's sake, need I even go on? This is ludicrous. To call this "science" is like saying "Welcome to Howdy-Doody Time!".

I'll stop here and leave you kind folks with a thought: Anyone who thinks a drum judge, or even a "drum guy", needs to be located at this survey's "G-Spot" in order to get a good read of the line doesn't understand drums, drumming, or drummers. My son and I can judge a battery line from across the parking lot at finals to determine the quality of line we want to go watch. We can even identify with good accuracy a line by name (ours is just a game, not "scientific"). The whole concept of "maximum sonic clarity" is silly.

A adequate drum judge can be running across the field to catch the snares while finishing a comment to the pit, while presently, in this microsecond listening to the splits going on in the bass line and watching the crazy sticking of the tenors. As he approaches the snares he's still listening to the gliss from the pit and complimenting the tenors and basses. To suggest that the drum judge isn't giving the kids "a good read" unless he's standing in that Sweet G-Spot does a terrible disservice to the work of the drum guys who can also judge.

I encourage each and every one of you, and DCI, to read this study to see its folly. If this work is used in any way to support an argument to move the drum judge upstairs I want you all to know what buffoons those decision makers truly are. To influence DCI policy in any way, with this flawed analysis is laughable.

At least this study author did get it right by pointing out the significant difference in "stage size" between DCI and indoor winter.

ya know what you told me about common sense and logic......quadruple it back at you

[Jeff Ream]

If you have ever been on the field teaching or judging, you know that positioning on the field is a major consideration when it comes to clarity. Being "in position" is a major training item for field judges and the instructors will demand that the judge be in position for proper credit.

Maybe the DCI instructors will never decide to relocate the percussion judge. Don't think they have not considered it especially with the success of the percussion 2 judge. There are not many differences between the top few lines so is having a field judge the only way to discern those differences? Maybe. You still need to consider the opportunity to judge the entire section for 100% of the time without seeing the little green man running around the field while we think the corps are providing the ultimate in total package production value.

There are flaws in any survey including this one. Discussion of relocating the percussion judge have been in motion for a few years before this survey was even done. The debate over relocating the percussion judge has its merits even if people like you refuse to even consider them. We can agree to disagree and that's fine with me. Let's continue to be open to new and fresh ideas, some may work and some won't.

the current system with judge 1 and 2 is the best possible scenario as each look at different things. 2 is not just the pit judge.

but if you take the guy off the field, in an enclosed stadium, you will NOT hear the tenors during any kind of MF or louder moment from the luxury boxes, and the bass drums will be mud. you will hear rimshots, brass and amplified sounds.

[perc2100]

Hmm... I kinda want some corps to include a judge trap in their drill... Just put the drumline in the center of the field, and then have the entire corps on the outline and jazz run into a 1 step interval box around the judge and the drum line... Then march out the tunnel with the judge trapped inside...

I've known that to happen at times, sometimes unintentionally and sometimes intentionally. I've heard tapes in the late 90's where a judge fell into the "trap" and got stuck in a tight horn formation where he said something like, "damm you trapped me: good one" and chuckled. I've known vis. people to chuckle and point out potential judge traps. And I vaguely remember once when a vis. writer wrote some pages and realized that he was likely (accidentally) leading a drum judge into a sticky situation, but didn't realize it until after the fact; they left it in.