Suicidal Judges

[garfield]

I'm just going to ping this discussion so we can pick it up tomorrow.

Watching SA tonight I became convinced (more convinced?) that one of us is right about percussion judges on the field.

G'nite all

[Jeff Ream]

As counterpoint - you actually can hear all voices quite well in the judge's position in LOS and other indoor stadiums - that's why they're there. If the programs are designed, orchestrated, and performed for an audience, shouldn't the assessment also be in that position? In fact, percussion writers are writing things admittedly just for the field judge that serve no musical purpose whatsoever. Also, these comments bout "you can hear anywhere" are just wrong. Not at the level of scrutiny required to differentiate the top percussion sections in DCI - judge a snare line from one end of a form, and see how long you're employed - ridiculous. On field music judging in DCI is superfluous in the 21st Century. Good for bands, with the wide variety of skills and less-mature players in need of input.

The state-of-the-art in battery playing is and has been WGI for a few years. There's no judge running around the floor getting an anyone's way trying to get in a sound focus. And, a sound focus is essential for sampling precision, quality of sound, musical detailing, etc.. They're very directional instruments.

As to the dropped Crown drum - every other performer has to pick up their own stuff, why not a snare? Had Allan not been there, the kid would have taken care of it. Who picks up dropped rifles, flags, and sabres? Think they only drop stuff in performance?

I for one am not comfortable with ranking state-of-the-art batterys with such a low sample size. No other performance assessment system would tolerate such mathematical ambiguity for rating, let alone ranking. Too much ramdom, no matter what time of the season.

Horse Hockey. I sat in the upper levels at LOS in 2010, and you heard rimshots and mud. I know several peoplehave agreed with me.

And no, no judge on the field in indoor. he's about 4-6 rows up, and doesnt have to deal with brass lines and guards blocking his view. Can't place the judge there in a stadium either.

oh and watch the video....the kid kept moving away from the drum. ####less the judges, including myself have retrieved equipment because kids are taught to go with the drill at all times.

and maybe you arent comfortable doing it, but the corps seem to be just fine doing it, and i think your statement about not musical is a load of crap as well. Now....will they probably write easier stuff? yes, but that doesnt make it musical.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Jeff Ream

[wvu80]

While this is a compelling argument, does the data support your contention? How many drum corps contests with perc judges on the field? How many injuries caused by the judge? How many injuries prevented by said judge picking up sticks and mallets (and the occasional snare drum) ) off the field?

Drum corps is not a risk-free activity -- even when there are NO judges on the field. So instead of painting the issue black and white, maybe you need to put it into context? For a parent, best way to prevent drum corps injuries to their child is to decline to participate. Putting "marcher's safety" first is probably not the entire story.

There is not ONE time where I have made an improper appeal to "data." I don't make that appeal now. I AM appealing to DCI to GET THE JUDGES OFF THE FIELD. My argument is, BEFORE SOMEBODY GETS HURT.

Let the performers perform in a KNOWN, controlled environment where they can perform safely. RANDOM judges on the field are an unknown variable to the performers. It is inherently unsafe.

Let's reframe: The PURPOSE, the ONLY PURPOSE of a judge is to ADJUDICATE a performance. The result of that adjudication is by definition to determine what corps is better than another. I know there are other benefits to adjudication, but determining a winner is the primary duty.

I GUARANTEE you if you put a judge on the field and ask them to adjudicate a performance, they can do that. If you put the same judge on the sideline, they can do that. If you put them in the press box, THEY CAN DO THAT.

There are many people who are smarter than me who can figure out where to locate judges. If they aren't on the field, I really don't care where they are positioned, or how they move, as long as members' safety is not imperiled by the judges.

The ONLY question remaining is, what is in the best interest of marching member, given the 21st century marching style of high speed maneuvering?

There are other benefits to having the judge off the field, but safety of these members MUST BE the top priority,

BEFORE somebody gets hurt.

Edited July 19, 2015 by wvu80

[garfield]

There is not ONE time where I have made an improper appeal to "data." I don't make that appeal now. I AM appealing to DCI to GET THE JUDGES OFF THE FIELD. My argument is, BEFORE SOMEBODY GETS HURT.

Let the performers perform in a KNOWN, controlled environment where they can perform safely. RANDOM judges on the field are an unknown variable to the performers. It is inherently unsafe.

Let's reframe: The PURPOSE, the ONLY PURPOSE of a judge is to ADJUDICATE a performance. The result of that adjudication is by definition to determine what corps is better than another. I know there are other benefits to adjudication, but determining a winner is the primary duty.

I GUARANTEE you if you put a judge on the field and ask them to adjudicate a performance, they can do that. If you put the same judge on the sideline, they can do that. If you put them in the press box, THEY CAN DO THAT.

There are many people who are smarter than me who can figure out where to locate judges. If they aren't on the field, I really don't care where they are positioned, or how they move, as long as members' safety is not imperiled by the judges.

The ONLY question remaining is, what is in the best interest of marching member, given the 21st century marching style of high speed maneuvering?

There are other benefits to having the judge off the field, but safety of these members MUST BE the top priority,

BEFORE somebody gets hurt.

There is a nearly 100% chance that someday in the future a meteor will strike the Earth and kill all living things.

We should just kill all of Earth's inhabitants now to avoid that potential disaster.

You know, because there was this irrefutable study...

Seriously, one only needed to watch the high-cam of last night's show to realize how much great percussion is missed from the booth.

You are so wrong on this point, but I appreciate your concern for the kids.

[corpsband]

There is not ONE time where I have made an improper appeal to "data." I don't make that appeal now. I AM appealing to DCI to GET THE JUDGES OFF THE FIELD. My argument is, BEFORE SOMEBODY GETS HURT. . . . .

There are other benefits to having the judge off the field, but safety of these members MUST BE the top priority,

BEFORE somebody gets hurt.

Kids are already gettng hurt in drumcorps all the time. Should we ban everything in step size except 8 to 5's? Should we ban tubas, bass drums and tenors ? What about practicing on artificial surfaces where temperatures are greater than 110 degrees ?

I think you need to make a better case than "BEFORE SOMEBODY GETS HURT". Sorry. EVERYTHING in drum corps is trade off in benefit vs risk.

Edited July 19, 2015 by corpsband

[Schnitzel]

Horse Hockey. I sat in the upper levels at LOS in 2010, and you heard rimshits and mud. I know several peoplehave agreed with me.

And no, no judge on the field in indoor. he's about 4-6 rows up, and doesnt have to deal with brass lines and guards blocking his view. Can't place the judge there in a stadium either.

oh and watch the video....the kid kept moving away from the drum. ####less the judges, including myself have retrieved equipment because kids are taught to go with the drill at all times.

and maybe you arent comfortable doing it, but the corps seem to be just fine doing it, and i think your statement about not musical is a load of crap as well. Now....will they probably write easier stuff? yes, but that doesnt make it musical.

"Horse Hockey?" "Load of Crap?"

Maybe you've been arguing too much with those neo-cons (Dinos?) on Facebook, and that's got your discourse "Trumped Up" a bit. I do expect more from you, based on the things I've read - you seem to be knowledgable, considered and usually considerATE.

Regardless, there is a legitimate conversation to have on this issue. There are definitely pros and cons.

Say what you will, I can hear everything I need to from the box at LOS, SA, STL Ford Field, Trop, and ATL. All of it. I do know that, particularly at LS, there's a lot of places that you can't hear well, and strangely it's as much of a horizontal issue as vertical. Caveat emptor for ticket buyers. @ the Alamodome, you hear better in the box than some places on the field! Of all this I'm certain, and anybody can say whatever they want, but I've spent more time there than most, and there's no argument - trust me or not.

This summer in DCA, percussionists will know to pick up anything essential they drop. It's just that simple, just like WGI, BOA, USBands, etc. for days.

Your assumption that more economical scoring is easier ("load of crap" to be exact) is also just wrong, Jeff. There's 40 years of anecdotal evidence, and also statistical studies of density of scoring that suggest otherwise. Most everyone (whether they realize it or not) complains about the ambiguity, density, and over-diversity of the percussion scoring - it's just too much. There's also state-of-the art writers who strongly advocate this very concept - that if we get the judge off the field, then the writing and performing focus will be in the stands, where it belongs. Again, you don't have to trust me, but I'd prefer not being insulted, if that's okay.

For those who think that think the lines will get "dirtier" when there's no judge trying to chase them around feverishly - that's been proven incorrect in both corps and bands. One of our most iconic writer/techs, whose team has won a number of titles (overall & percussion) admits he won't even go out with his battery in rehearsal!! Also there are some BOA batterys that play every bit as clean as some DCI lines - rarely at the same demand-level, but that's not we're discussing.

It's a legitimate discussion, and we'll know more after this DCA season - the initial feedback from writers and techs has been positive thus far. There are lots of nuances to this issue that go far beyond the surface psuedo-intellectual expressions that go on here - it's a very captivating subject, actually.

Since you mentioned it - the reason I stopped doing the field is that IMO no one has enough access to enough sonically accurate positions to make definitive decisions on rankings. You should only evaluate what you hear (and/or see), and the way the lines are being segmented and playing in diverse listening environments negates an actual statistical reliability to the assessment. much less the score.

It would be akin to doing the Academy Award voting based on three 10-minute segments of the films chosen in random order for each individual voter.

And yes, some writers, and especially techs, like it the way it is now - you might be surprised which-is-which.

BTW: did I write anything to make you angry, or something?

Edited July 19, 2015 by Schnitzel

[garfield]

"Horse Hockey?" "Load of Crap?"

Maybe you've been arguing too much with those neo-cons (Dinos?) on Facebook, and that's got your discourse "Trumped Up" a bit. I do expect more from you, based on the things I've read - you seem to be knowledgable, considered and usually considerATE.

Regardless, there is a legitimate conversation to have on this issue. There are definitely pros and cons.

Say what you will, I can hear everything I need to from the box at LOS, SA, STL Ford Field, Trop, and ATL. All of it. I do know that, particularly at LS, there's a lot of places that you can't hear well, and strangely it's as much of a horizontal issue as vertical. Caveat emptor for ticket buyers. @ the Alamodome, you hear better in the box than some places on the field! Of all this I'm certain, and anybody can say whatever they want, but I've spent more time there than most, and there's no argument - trust me or not.

This summer in DCA, percussionists will know to pick up anything essential they drop. It's just that simple, just like WGI, BOA, USBands, etc. for days.

Your assumption that more economical scoring is easier ("load of crap" to be exact) is also just wrong, Jeff. There's 40 years of anecdotal evidence, and also statistical studies of density of scoring that suggest otherwise. Most everyone (whether they realize it or not) complains about the ambiguity, density, and over-diversity of the percussion scoring - it's just too much. There's also state-of-the art writers who strongly advocate this very concept - that if we get the judge off the field, then the writing and performing focus will be in the stands, where it belongs. Again, you don't have to trust me, but I'd prefer not being insulted, if that's okay.

For those who think that think the lines will get "dirtier" when there's no judge trying to chase them around feverishly -

One of our most iconic writer/techs, whose team has won a number of titles (overall & percussion) admits he won't even go out with his battery in rehearsal!! Also there are some BOA batterys that play every bit as clean as some DCI lines - rarely at the same demand-level, but that's not we're discussing.

It's a legitimate discussion, and we'll know more after this DCA season - the initial feedback from writers and techs has been positive thus far. There are lots of nuances to this issue that go far beyond the surface psuedo-intellectual expressions that go on here - it's a very captivating subject, actually.

Since you mentioned it - the reason I stopped doing the field is that IMO no one has enough access to enough sonically accurate positions to make definitive decisions on rankings. You should only evaluate what you hear (and/or see), and the way the lines are being segmented and playing in diverse listening environments negates an actual statistical reliability to the assessment. much less the score.

It would be akin to doing the Academy Award voting based on three 10-minute segments of the films chosen in random order for each individual voter.

And yes, some writers, and especially techs, like it the way it is now - you might be surprised which-is-which.

BTW: did I write anything to make you angry, or something?

1. Straw man

2. Why do you keep talking about DCA, when this is DCI?

3. Sonically accurate? Please, what the hell does this mean? Sonically accurate? Have you ever taught or judged a drum line in your life?

4. How can you "see" from the press box the AMAZING hand work of the Cadets? So much is missed from the box!

5. If films were 10 minutes long they would be voted on in that context

6. Your connotation that you are in private observation of "some writers, and how they might like it... straw man.

Please, stop. You have no idea what you're talking about. Are you a percussionist? Have you seen drum judge sheets?

What is the motivation behind this idea that drum judges should be in the booth? Is it financial? Is it a matter of cost-savings?

There have never been any member accidents on the field - is it really a safety issue?

Edited July 19, 2015 by garfield

[Schnitzel]

1. Straw man

2. Why do you keep talking about DCA, when this is DCI?

3. Sonically accurate? Please, what the hell does this mean? Sonically accurate? Have you ever taught or judged a drum line in your life?

4. How can you "see" from the press box the AMAZING hand work of the Cadets? So much is missed from the box!

5. If films were 10 minutes long they would be voted on in that context

6. Your connotation that you are in private observation of "some writers, and how they might like it... straw man.

Please, stop. You have no idea what you're talking about. Are you a percussionist? Have you seen drum judge sheets?

What is the motivation behind this idea that drum judges should be in the booth? Is it financial? Is it a matter of cost-savings?

There have never been any member accidents on the field - is it really a safety issue?

This post was intended for Jeff Ream, not you.

The reason: it appears you don't have conversations, you just "educate" people. Whether you know it or not, you're embarrassing yourself here.

[garfield]

This post was intended for Jeff Ream, not you.

The reason: it appears you don't have conversations, you just "educate" people. Whether you know it or not, you're embarrassing yourself here.

OK, if you think you'll have a more convincing argument with Jeff, then go ahead. He's addressed and refuted your position but you refuse to acknowledge him; you continue to beat your dead horse when actual practitioners refute your claim. Who's the embarrassment?

Are you a percussionist? (Jeff Ream and I are.) Good luck making your case to him, even if you ignore me.

You haven't responded to me since my first challenge of your position. That tells me all I need to know about your expertise on this issue.

It doesn't matter who you respond to. Your argument is invalid and feeble-minded. You have little substantiation for your claims.

If your response was meant for just one person you should PM that person instead of attempting to make your case on an open thread.

You have had several conversations with posters in your 41 posts; I have had thousands.

Edited July 20, 2015 by garfield

[Schnitzel]

OK, if you think you'll have a more convincing argument with Jeff, then go ahead. He's addressed and refuted your position but you refuse to acknowledge him; you continue to beat your dead horse when actual practitioners refute your claim. Who's the embarrassment?

Are you a percussionist? (Jeff Ream and I are.) Good luck making your case to him, even if you ignore me.

You haven't responded to me since my first challenge of your position. That tells me all I need to know about your expertise on this issue.

It doesn't matter who your respond to. Your argument is invalid and feeble-minded. You have little substantiation for your claims.

If your response was meant for just one person you should PM that person instead of attempting to make your case on an open thread.

You have had several conversations with posters in your 41 posts; I have had thousands.

Okay, I'll play along, but I would appreciate it if you could be a bit more civil, maybe even respectful? I've attempted to do the same.

So, you're saying I'm wrong on all counts, right?