bluesman Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) Having a percussion judge made sense at one time. Of course so did the tick system and marching vibraphones. If those of us watching from the stands and on FN can tell a dirty battery from a clean battery then the judges should be able to it from the sidelines. Edited July 20, 2015 by bluesman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) Oh, and do I have to go thru the credentials and education thing? Does that give credibility on an anonymous forum? I have seen a "drum judge's sheet," and played a percussion instrument. But not much anymore. Judged a couple of contests. More band ones than anything else. You've posted 9,144 times more than I on DCP. I'm gonna get so schooled. No, let's not bother. I don't have time or desire, either. You're likely more right than wrong in your assessment of me - as a drummer, with a kid who's about to try out for his first time this fall, I don't want anything to change in his experience on the field. The judge in his face is part of what toughens him up and tests his mettle, it's where he's his most exposed to what he can expect in life. I don't want some, I'm sorry, politically-correct notion of protecting us from ourselves to pollute the raw lessons that drum corps teaches. So yes, I likely got a little winded in my "discussion" with you. This is sage advice in my inbox this morning: Know What You Don't Know "The Process for learning is saying I don't know...and building on that without an ego." Ray Dalio Founder, Bridgewater Associates Still, because we obviously differ in our opinions of this, if you want to change the status-quo you have to produce convincing evidence and reasoning to convince any rule-makers to change their positions. You have done neither, and you inflamed the discussion by contenting that a single, highly-flawed, "peer-reviewed" study was settled-science on the matter. It surely is not, and its flaws are justified with "all studies have flaws". Amazingly convenient excuse for shoddy implementation and highly-questionable results. Drum corps is likely HIGHLY aware of the potential liability they face should there be a catastrophe that results in serious harm, but falling over a judge is likely not the most catastrophic event that drum corps faces. Bus rides, accidents, uncontrollable MM days-off, airplanes to camps, heck even spoiled food-borne diseases!... Many things keep DCI up at night and consume their insurance dollars. The kind of on-field accident that you fear is not catastrophic to the activity even if were ever to happen. Your idea of re-positioning the on-field perc judge causes more negative impact than the benefit of not having a potential accident. You are, of course entitled to your opinion and I am certainly willing to listen. But, if it's strong enough to seek real change in the activity, you'll need to produce something of a little more substance than an opinion and a reference study of that caliber. Until you can produce some kind of evidence beyond your fear and quasi-legal opinion, I'd just as soon you keep your protective actions to yourself and out of drum corps. But I'm a nobody, and not the one you need to convince. But, if you'd like to practice on DCP, we're here to listen! Edited to correct the spelling of "mettle". (Thanks NE) Edited July 20, 2015 by garfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tad_MMA Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I wonder if the drill writers take judges into account when they write drill for the battery.... G. Hopkins mentioned to M. Sylvester that when he took over (post-Zingali), the battery purposely got closer and closer to the horns:) They also talked about the 1983 drum judge who "didn't like them" (and judged Finals). At one show, he wiped out getting out of the way. Whoopsie! 1990 Cadets was the first time I've ever see the entire snare line back through the horn form (near the end of Galop). I'll never shake off that innovation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnitzel Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) Know What You Don't Know "The Process for learning is saying I don't know...and building on that without an ego." Ray Dalio Founder, Bridgewater Associates Sage advice for all - I'll keep that in mind, garfield. Just know that it might not mean to me what you think it does . . . my best to Ray Dalio, BTW. I appreciate that the conversation has gotten a bit more civil. Maybe I'm just soft - just not accustomed to sharing important ideas that way. You don't want to read a lot of minutae here, some probably just want to respond ASAP. So - just a couple of "other" things to ponder, maybe: Then you can insist I don't know what I'm talking about, anyway. Easy "win" for you! When the Field Percussion Study was presented to the DCI Board, they subsequently approved a new "Percussion 2" caption at that meeting, The Percussion Caucus has been requesting a second judge yearly for some time - ever since one percussion caption "was lost." Why do it now? This even though DCI is intent enough on holding down adjudicator expenses to the point that they've not changed the judging fees in DECADES. Wonder why this reaction at this point? A document was presented at that same meeting from an expert attorney warning of the type settlements that are precedented in actions of parents vs administration/staffs in youth activities. Think judge tripping a kid that then suffers oral/facial damage that ruins his career as a brass major. Now, that board presentation might be brought up in a potential damages suit that we all hope doesn't happen. Fairness and logic don't apply. Legal precedents and jury emotions do. Protest all you want. That ship has sailed. Did you read all the documents on MRT? The DCI Visual Design community is virtually unanimous in their desire to remove all field judges, even the ones who can hang in the periphery. You know the activity, you think the visual crowd matters? Tom Blair, the Producer/Director of DCI CInemedia Projects wants all judges off the field. Think he matters? Jeff doesn't like the composition argument, I know, but there are others who write for DCI (and DCA, BOA, WGI) for a living that do. Think they matter? I appreciate your time, and know you have better things to do. Just one request: remember our little conversation about these things for awhile. I'm certainly not saying that any decision for change is a no-brainer, because there are always plusses and minuses either way. Interesting choices for you. You can easily dismiss this information without a thought - it's certainly contrary to what you probably hear "in the lot" or social media. Or you can ponder. Or just go back to insulting each other's posts. Or this one. P.S. Did you hear that WGI Percussion just voted to add a Visual Effect Judge for 2016? That raises their judge costs by 25%! Interesting. It's all one big year-long community now. Edited July 20, 2015 by Schnitzel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onthe50 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Know What You Don't Know "The Process for learning is saying I don't know...and building on that without an ego." Ray Dalio Founder, Bridgewater Associates Sage advice for all - I'll keep that in mind, garfield. Just know that it might not mean to me what you think it does . . . my best to Ray Dalio, BTW. I appreciate that the conversation has gotten a bit more civil. Maybe I'm just soft - just not accustomed to sharing important ideas that way. You don't want to read a lot of minutae here, some probably just want to respond ASAP. So - just a couple of "other" things to ponder, maybe: Then you can insist I don't know what I'm talking about, anyway. Easy "win" for you! When the Field Percussion Study was presented to the DCI Board, they subsequently approved a new "Percussion 2" caption at that meeting, The Percussion Caucus has been requesting a second judge yearly for some time - ever since one percussion caption "was lost." Why do it now? This even though DCI is intent enough on holding down adjudicator expenses to the point that they've not changed the judging fees in DECADES. Wonder why this reaction at this point? A document was presented at that same meeting from an expert attorney warning of the type settlements that are precedented in actions of parents vs administration/staffs in youth activities. Think judge tripping a kid that then suffers oral/facial damage that ruins his career as a brass major. Now, that board presentation might be brought up in a potential damages suit that we all hope doesn't happen. Fairness and logic don't apply. Legal precedents and jury emotions do. Protest all you want. That ship has sailed. Did you read all the documents on MRT? The DCI Visual Design community is virtually unanimous in their desire to remove all field judges, even the ones who can hang in the periphery. You know the activity, you think the visual crowd matters? Tom Blair, the Producer/Director of DCI CInemedia Projects wants all judges off the field. Think he matters? Jeff doesn't like the composition argument, I know, but there are others who write for DCI (and DCA, BOA, WGI) for a living that do. Think they matter? I appreciate your time, and know you have better things to do. Just one request: remember our little conversation about these things for awhile. I'm certainly not saying that any decision for change is a no-brainer, because there are always plusses and minuses either way. Interesting choices for you. You can easily dismiss this information without a thought - it's certainly contrary to what you probably hear "in the lot" or social media. Or you can ponder. Or just go back to insulting each other's posts. Or this one. P.S. Did you hear that WGI Percussion just voted to add a Visual Effect Judge for 2016? That raises their judge costs by 25%! Interesting. It's all one big year-long community now. Great post! All very valid arguments that need to be considered. I realize the passion some people have for the field judge and the micro analysis that comes with it. I really do and that is a very valid point. When considering seating the percussion judge upstairs, the key point is the intent of the designer. Just imagine if the designers had to score the book so you (the audience) could hear every great part of the show without going out to the lot? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Did anyone see the percussion judge in SA get caught in the BK moving circle formation? He made it out alive! my favorite, and I wont name names is a band condensed a big block into a tight triangle, and the judge was trapped...to escape during the hold he hit the ground and crawled under a bass drum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Having a percussion judge made sense at one time. Of course so did the tick system and marching vibraphones. If those of us watching from the stands and on FN can tell a dirty battery from a clean battery then the judges should be able to it from the sidelines. so you can tell this from the 600 level in LOS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Know What You Don't Know "The Process for learning is saying I don't know...and building on that without an ego." Ray Dalio Founder, Bridgewater Associates Sage advice for all - I'll keep that in mind, garfield. Just know that it might not mean to me what you think it does . . . my best to Ray Dalio, BTW. I appreciate that the conversation has gotten a bit more civil. Maybe I'm just soft - just not accustomed to sharing important ideas that way. You don't want to read a lot of minutae here, some probably just want to respond ASAP. So - just a couple of "other" things to ponder, maybe: Then you can insist I don't know what I'm talking about, anyway. Easy "win" for you! When the Field Percussion Study was presented to the DCI Board, they subsequently approved a new "Percussion 2" caption at that meeting, The Percussion Caucus has been requesting a second judge yearly for some time - ever since one percussion caption "was lost." Why do it now? This even though DCI is intent enough on holding down adjudicator expenses to the point that they've not changed the judging fees in DECADES. Wonder why this reaction at this point? A document was presented at that same meeting from an expert attorney warning of the type settlements that are precedented in actions of parents vs administration/staffs in youth activities. Think judge tripping a kid that then suffers oral/facial damage that ruins his career as a brass major. Now, that board presentation might be brought up in a potential damages suit that we all hope doesn't happen. Fairness and logic don't apply. Legal precedents and jury emotions do. Protest all you want. That ship has sailed. Did you read all the documents on MRT? The DCI Visual Design community is virtually unanimous in their desire to remove all field judges, even the ones who can hang in the periphery. You know the activity, you think the visual crowd matters? Tom Blair, the Producer/Director of DCI CInemedia Projects wants all judges off the field. Think he matters? Jeff doesn't like the composition argument, I know, but there are others who write for DCI (and DCA, BOA, WGI) for a living that do. Think they matter? I appreciate your time, and know you have better things to do. Just one request: remember our little conversation about these things for awhile. I'm certainly not saying that any decision for change is a no-brainer, because there are always plusses and minuses either way. Interesting choices for you. You can easily dismiss this information without a thought - it's certainly contrary to what you probably hear "in the lot" or social media. Or you can ponder. Or just go back to insulting each other's posts. Or this one. P.S. Did you hear that WGI Percussion just voted to add a Visual Effect Judge for 2016? That raises their judge costs by 25%! Interesting. It's all one big year-long community now. yeah not a very popular move in many local circuits....and in some camps within WGI itself. but when 30 of your 38 voting members are the world class, it's going to be all about them, and not thinking about the effects on the lower classes, where the bulk of your membership is 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Are you saying, Jeff, that present day WGI (and its judging) is not a perfect world???? One would never know that from all the DCP citations about WGI in the threads this season! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Are you saying, Jeff, that present day WGI (and its judging) is not a perfect world???? One would never know that from all the DCP citations about WGI in the threads this season! WGi percussion was IMO, the best possible scenario until the effect caption was split into 2. As this change was just made in May, I have no true data if it'll be good, but I think in many ways it's going to be bad for A and Open, and local circuits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.