perc2100 Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 For me, this is kind of an apples and oranges question. While percussion hurt Crown in 2012, in 2014 it was not the only challenge Crown faced and as someone in another thread posted, even if Crown had a perfect percussion score in 2015, they still would have placed second. Their percussion shortcomings did not help, but their finals performance was not quite what it could have been. Crown needs to take their percussion concerns more seriously, a little improvement here and there is not enough, and it could become more of an issue if it is not addressed in a more deliberate manner, but an off night at finals is more the case than percussion alone. Just as you cannot blame percussion alone for Crown's second place, I don't think guard alone is why Cadets placed 4th. At the start of the season, they had a show many thought would plateau, and I will admit I was in that category. I ate my fair share of crow when I saw the show emerge into something amazing. Yes there were some design changes and the uniform change, but while they did not plateau, somehow Cadets seemed to loose steam. At about the same time there were rumblings of tension off the field that had little to do with the show. While this is something that can and probably does happen all the time, I am wondering if it impacted the corps this past summer. Well to be fair if they had a perfect Percussion Score their Music Effect sheets & Music Ensemble sheets would also likely be higher. I'm just stating semantics thought: doesn't mean I don't disagree with your overall take (I mostly agree with you) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brichtimp Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 IMHO, 2015 Cadets had an awesome show, but never really got the drill as clean as it needed to be. Percussion and brass were top shelf and I thought the guard was variable in design staging and execution. Personally, I do not like the idea that the guard scoring carries more weight than either brass or percussion....ymmv. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Cadets have a call-in tonight (Weds,) for vet and potential guard members. The ensuing discussion with caption head and GH should reveal more plans and strategies. Percussionists get the opportunity tomorrow night (Thursday) with even greater reveals possible. Further info on Cadets web and FB. Reveals should prosper the discussion on this thread certainly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tad_MMA Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Cadets' history: after April Gilligan aged out in 1987, she joined the '88 staff--first as a marching tech and then as a guard tech when somebody left during the season. In 1988, the guard finished 11th in semis and 9th in finals (first half/half coed guard). She took over the program in 1989, and they won. Then they won 4 more times in the 90s. (How they lost in '92 and '95 will be my second question to St. Peter.) Alas, she never won another guard trophy after 1996 (99.9% flawless finals performance). But the point is that it takes one person at the right time in the right place to find that missing piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tad_MMA Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 ...Personally, I do not like the idea that the guard scoring carries more weight than either brass or percussion....ymmv. How does it? GE might be affected, but at regionals/championships, there are TWO drum judges. Granted, those scores are averaged, but check this from 2008: GE Vis GE Vis (Avg) Guard (Avg) Perc1 Perc2 (Avg) Phantom: 19.7 19.5 19.60 19.2 9.60 19.8 19.9 19.85 Devils: 19.9 20.0 19.95 19.9 9.95 19.0 19.0 19.00 BD won every caption except drums. In the averaged, weighted numbers, these are the strengths/weaknesses. So BD's biggest lead over PR was guard, and it wasn't enough. Take out that second drum judge (horns and guard don't get a second judge, do they?), and DCI '08 is another tie (assuming Drum 1 was the field guy). They DID take it out after that season (I wonder why...) but brought it back in 2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) How does it? GE might be affected, but at regionals/championships, there are TWO drum judges. Granted, those scores are averaged, but check this from 2008: GE Vis GE Vis (Avg) Guard (Avg) Perc1 Perc2 (Avg) Phantom: 19.7 19.5 19.60 19.2 9.60 19.8 19.9 19.85 Devils: 19.9 20.0 19.95 19.9 9.95 19.0 19.0 19.00 BD won every caption except drums. In the averaged, weighted numbers, these are the strengths/weaknesses. So BD's biggest lead over PR was guard, and it wasn't enough. Take out that second drum judge (horns and guard don't get a second judge, do they?), and DCI '08 is another tie (assuming Drum 1 was the field guy). They DID take it out after that season (I wonder why...) but brought it back in 2014. Guards play no musical instruments... yet their efforts bleed into the GE Captions enormously. Keep in mind also, the typical sized Guard is 33-45 members. How big are the Brass lines now these days ? Did I hear you say ... " 65-80 " ? Thus, on the scoring sheets... per marcher..... a Guard marcher has more sway on the scoring sheets, than a brass player does. Couple this with the fact that we have far more Guard soloists ( solo dancers ) in Corps than ever before ( vocalists are Guard members, for another example too ) as well as the themes being driven mostly my a Visual than a Musical, and it seems pretty clear that the Guard is the single most important section in a Corps today. Cadets had one of their finest Brass lines in several years last season. What did it get them, when by contrast their Guard was not as good as most years ? SCV has had phenomenal Percussion lines the last several years. How has that worked out for them ? Crown has had great Brass lines for almost a decade. But once they got themselves a stellar Guard it catapulted them into Title contention, including last year's Guard. BD's Guard has made them Title contenders every year now. Edited October 30, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Guards play no musical instruments... yet their efforts bleed into the GE Captions enormously. Keep in mind also, the typical sized Guard is 33-45 members. How big are the Brass lines now these days ? Did I hear you say ... " 65-80 " ? Thus, on the scoring sheets... per marcher..... a Guard marcher has more sway on the scoring sheets, than a brass player does. Couple this with the fact that we have far more Guard soloists ( solo dancers ) in Corps than ever before ( vocalists are Guard members, for one example too ) as well as the Themes being driven mostly my a Visual than a Musical, and it seems pretty clear that the Guard is the single most important section in a Corps today. Cadets had one of their finast Brass Lines in years last season. What did it get them, when by contrast their Guard was not as good as most years ? here's another thought... Percussion sections rarely go larger than 36 members. But with the horn players (70+) and DM/Conductors (1-4), guard is never more than 1/3 of total corps, more or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) here's another thought... Percussion sections rarely go larger than 36 members. However, half the Percussion section " marchers" are grounded " marchers " in todays DCI competitions. The grounded " marchers " in Percussion are really not judged in the Visual captions. But the Guards ? All of the Guard marchers are judged in the Visual captions... bigtime . Every single one of them. Thus, they are far more important on the current scoring sheets than the grounded Percussion " marchers " are, lets be honest here. The irony is that as the Drum Corps movement has more aligned itself with the Schools and Universities than ever before, attracted more Music Majors for example, there is no degree to be had at the University level in " Guard "( as there is in Percussion, Music , etc ). This is observed in the current environment too where the current DCI scoring sheets increasingly skew the scoring toward things that a musical university education does not require at all, ....nor even offer classes in, at the Schools & Universities ( ie, " Guard " ). Edited October 30, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) However, half the Percussion section " marchers" are grounded " marchers " in todays DCI competitions. The grounded " marchers " in Percussion are not judged in the Visual captions at all. But the Guards ? All of the Guard marchers are judged in the Visual captions . Every single one of them. Thus, they are far more important on the current scoring sheets than the grounded Percussion " marchers " are, lets be honest here. The irony is that as the Drum Corps movement has more aligned itself with the Schools and Universities than ever before, attracted more Music Majors for example, there is no degree to be had at the University level in " Guard "( as there is in Percussion, Music , etc ). This is observed in the current environment too where the current DCI scoring sheets increasingly skew the scoring toward things that a musical university education does not require at all, ....nor even offer classes in, at the Schools & Universities ( ie, " Guard " ). I see where you are going and don't necessarily disagree at all. But the guardsters do hold majors like DANCE, Theater, Stage Arts, Costume History (like Cesario), Kinesiology, and Elementary education (you know how those pre-K to 12th graders love to color, sing, flail, throw things and take naps, just like our guardsters.) Naps you wonder? Guess what they are doing behind those Berlin Walls they erect known as "judge blockers?" Brasso, you and the guard may have something in common, no? Edited October 30, 2015 by xandandl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000Cadet Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Cadets' history: after April Gilligan aged out in 1987, she joined the '88 staff--first as a marching tech and then as a guard tech when somebody left during the season. In 1988, the guard finished 11th in semis and 9th in finals (first half/half coed guard). She took over the program in 1989, and they won. Then they won 4 more times in the 90s. (How they lost in '92 and '95 will be my second question to St. Peter.) Alas, she never won another guard trophy after 1996 (99.9% flawless finals performance). But the point is that it takes one person at the right time in the right place to find that missing piece. The guard that year is one of the reasons I fell in love with Cadets and wanted to march there. They were incredible. 1997 wasn't too bad either imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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