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eric24

Corps 19-25 Placeing Higher

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I think competition is what has made the 13 - 25 corps so much better IMO.

True for the Blue Devils as well. The annual influx of MM talent from lower tier Corps has allowed the Blue Devils to dominate DCI like no other team in any other competitive endeavor in the world has so dominated . Under the current system, the marchers may come and go thru BD each and ever year, but BD will continue to dominate DCI like this for the next half a century too. Would BD be able to so dominate DCI if their yearly uncompensated feeder system into their ranks ( the other Corps ) was not in place ? Probably not. But the fact that it is, is the reality. And we are not dealing here with myth, nor unreality, I would imagine. I believe the OP is asking us the question on these 16th and below Corps future placement prospects and is asking us for our opinions for this that is grounded in some level headed reality, not an unreality to our opinions offered on the questions of what it would take, and the realistic ( or unrealistic ) chances they have for moving up in placement into the upper echelon of DCI.

Edited by BRASSO

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You could be correct that for a few of these Corps, moving up in placement is of little to no concern to them. With such Corps, if they exist, this OP's question before us does not apply to them. Since these particular Corps ( again, if they even exist ) are not concerned with moving up in placement, then neither are we. Therefore, the OP 's question does not pertain to them at all.

Touché.

If I had to pick one factor that would have the biggest chance of improved placement: improved staff (music design, visual design, visual staff)

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You could be correct that for a few of these Corps, moving up in placement is of little to no concern to them. With such Corps, if they exist, this OP's question before us does not apply to them. Since these particular Corps ( again, if they even exist ) are not concerned with moving up in placement, then neither are we. Therefore, the OP 's question does not pertain to them at all. We then are left with, we would assume, the vast majority of Corps, having willfully joined an organization where competition between teams is the norm, ARE indeed interested in their future upward placement prospects, and what it would take to move up in placements in future years. I mentioned that vet retention of marcher talent to be the single biggest need for them to have,imo... then mentioned as a follow up that the environment and culture at present in DCI is not favorable at all to these Corps in the least for this to happen ( MM talent retention). Ergo, they are hopelessly pretty much locked into these 16th to 40 positions from now until forever... or until they fold and disappear as regrettably we find most of 'em eventually do.

See though, I can't find that stats from the last few seasons, but many corps have a pretty good retention rate at this point. I can only thing of 3 that have really low %. While you can do well with member retention, you still have to set those people up for success. That doesn't happen with membership, it happens in show creation in the offseason.

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I think competition is what has made the 13 - 25 corps so much better IMO.

Competition makes everyone better imo. Now competition can also mean different things to different corps. It could mean making finals, making semis, breaking into top 20, improving their own best score, beating a specific corps, just improving and merely competing against themselves or their past . This is a personal choice. This also has nothing to do with judges sheets or current system. Corps will adapt to whatever sheets as well as any system. I don't think under any system you would see any drastic differences. That is of course unless someone wants to invent a system that in most universes wouldn't be adapted..lol

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Touché.

If I had to pick one factor that would have the biggest chance of improved placement: improved staff (music design, visual design, visual staff)

I actually believe that some of the BEST staff are found at the lower level tier Corps, as a matter of fact. Since they are bright, they know that the song arrangements, the visual designs, etc etc must match the talent levels of what is before them. This is not to say that there are not staffers in the lower tier Corps that are not as bright, creative, as some in the higher placing Corps. There are . But I know that there are staffers in the upper echelon Corps... some of them there for years... that are no more creative than what is found at the lower tier Corps. Hell, most of us here know quite a few of them write and design for BOTH the higher and lower placing Corps. Did these people do a worse job designing shows for the lower placing Corps, than the writings and arranging, and designing, instructing, etc they do for the higher placing Corps ?. Of course not . So what was different ? Well, these writers designed shows based upon the MM talent that was available to them. Thats the difference. Giving a show design to ( for example ) Pacific Crest that one would give to the Blue Devils or Cadets would be stupido. PC's inexperienced, and younger MM's, could not possibly handle such demands put on them to execute such shows. This is not rocket science here to understand the veritable Catch 22 that handicaps all these lower placing Corps when each season there is an annual pilgrimmage out of these Corps, and into the ranks of the Elites Corps above them.

Edited by BRASSO

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I actually believe that some of the BEST staff are found at the lower level tier Corps, as a matter of fact. Since they are bright, they know that the song arrangements, the visual designs, etc etc must match the talent levels of what is before them. This is not to say that there are not staffers in the lower tier Corps that are not as bright, creative, as some in the higher placing Corps. There are . But I know that there are staffers in the upper echelon Corps... some of them there for years... that are no more creative than what is found at the lower tier Corps. Hell, most of us here know quite a few of them write and design for BOTH the higher and lower placing Corps. Did these people do a worse job designing shows for the lower placing Corps, than the writings and arranging, and designing, instructing, etc they do for the higher placing Corps ?. Of course not . So what was different ? Well, these writers designed shows based upon the MM talent that was available to them. Thats the difference. Giving a show design to ( for example ) Pacific Crest that one would give to the Blue Devils or Cadets would be stupido. PC's inexperienced, and younger MM's, could not possibly handle such demands put on them to execute such shows. This is not rocket science here to understand the veritable Catch 22 that handicaps all these lower placing Corps when each season there is an annual pilgrimmage out of these Corps, and into the ranks of the Elites Corps above them.

I can tell you for a fact, after working for a group that purchased a design from a visual designer from a top 3 World Class corps... We got the short end of the stick. Because we weren't #1 on their list. We got a piece of garbage that had to be rewritten (by someone else) 5 weeks in because they couldn't be troubled to worry about the little corps or the lack of effectiveness of their design. They just phoned it in, and called in done. So yes, the did give us a way less creative design turd to attempt to glitter and paint.

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I can tell you for a fact, after working for a group that purchased a design from a visual designer from a top 3 World Class corps... We got the short end of the stick. Because we weren't #1 on their list. We got a piece of garbage that had to be rewritten (by someone else) 5 weeks in because they couldn't be troubled to worry about the little corps or the lack of effectiveness of their design. They just phoned it in, and called in done. So yes, the did give us a way less creative design turd to attempt to glitter and paint.

The is very much the norm. Many even in finals ( lower part ) think they are getting something special sometimes by adding a name to the staff list only to find sometimes it has worked even against them. Of course there are exceptions to the rule and it doesnt always happen BUT this is very factual in my experience and observation AND the fact I get calls almost every year with a big HELP! from some of these corps short changed.

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I can tell you for a fact, after working for a group that purchased a design from a visual designer from a top 3 World Class corps... We got the short end of the stick. Because we weren't #1 on their list. We got a piece of garbage that had to be rewritten (by someone else) 5 weeks in because they couldn't be troubled to worry about the little corps or the lack of effectiveness of their design. They just phoned it in, and called in done. So yes, the did give us a way less creative design turd to attempt to glitter and paint.

There is what is called " the norm" and then the " exception to the rule". Are there cases where a writer gave short shrift to a lower placing Corps ( that he or she would not do to an Elite Corps ?: ) Of Course. You cited an example. Are there honorable writers that give proper treatment to Corps irrespective of their status ? Of Course. Are they the norm in DCI. Gawd, lets hope so, or DCI has even more things to correct. Can we assume that a writer or designer that writes for all levels of Corps, takes into consideration the expected talent level of the Corps he or she will be designing for ? " Of course. Might we also assume that most of these bright & creative writers make this evaluation as their normal consideration, when designing shows for Corps ? Of course. As for the next question of levels of " service "... people that give poor service to others based upon the customers status in life happens. Is it the norm however for successful enterprises to determine their service level based upon this status level ?. No.. not with successful, honorable enterprises, anyway. Its the " exception to the rule ". Enterprises that couch their level of service to customers based upon their customers status in life, generally have lost future sales and banckruptcy lurking on their future horizon. Thats their easily predictable future. As its surely not the norm that we'll ever find with successful enterprises, businesses.

Edited by BRASSO

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There is what is called " the norm" and then the " exception to the rule". Are there cases where a writer gave short shrift to a lower placing Corps ( that he or she would not do to an Elite Corps ?: ) Of Course. You cited an example. Are there honorable writers that give proper trreatment to Corps irrespective of their status ? Of Course. Can we assume that a writer or designer that writes for all levels of Corps, takes into consideration the expected talent level of the Corps he or she will be designing for " Of course. Might we also assume that most of these bright & creative writers make this evaluation as their normal consideration, when designing shows for Corps ? Of course. People that give poor service to others based upon the customers status in life happens. Is it the norm for successful enterprises to determine their service level based upon this status level. Gawd, lets hope thats not the norm. Enterprises that couch their level of service to clientele based upon their status, generally have lost sales and bancruptcy on their future horizon. Thats their future.

One would think at this level that because we are a very small activity, many of these top designers would not be in business so to speak after a few stinkers, that's not true at all. Even for some with notorious reputations people always hope they are going to receive the golden ring . Happens at times, most often the opposite

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But you made a blanket statement that they didn't do this sort of thing. That was a large bag of money tossed at someone who spoke a big game. And then sent us toilet paper with scribbles on it. I'm not certain this was an exception, but their norm judging by the treatment we received.

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