Percussion: Overall Placements

[Jeff Ream]

Yes, and no.

The biggest drawback is A) no movements.. drummers are stationary and B) most lots videos are showing snares, tenors, bass only.

That said, one can get a pretty good read on the quality of the percussion playing abilities.

If we watch a baseball hitter hit practice balls out of the park with frequency in the practice batting cage, and see this done over and over again, while its no guarantee the hitter can do this in real games, we can be pretty sure that the hitter has home run potential. I think I saw enough of the Cadets drumline this season... both live in the lots, and on video in the lots, and how they marched and played live, and on tape on more than a dozen times this season to convince myself that the 2017 Cadets Percussion line was no " 5th place " line. The Show Design pullded their line down to as low as 5th, imo. But if others here disagree with that assessment, and don't think the Show Design negatively impacted even their Percussion lines performance execution scores, thats cool and all too... no problem.

No. Period. They aren't on the move, half play on stands, listening environments are far more static, and the list goes on. Any half decent judge and above would agree

[perc2100]

Yes, and no.

The biggest drawback is A) no movements.. drummers are stationary and B) most lots videos are showing snares, tenors, bass only.

That said, one can get a pretty good read on the quality of the percussion playing abilities, demand, variety, uniformity of playing, etc and the like.

If we watch a baseball hitter hit practice balls out of the park with frequency in the practice batting cage, and see this done over and over again, while its no guarantee the hitter can do this in real games, we can be pretty sure that the hitter has home run potential. I think I saw enough of the Cadets drumline this season... both live in the lots, and on video in the lots, and how they marched and played live, and on tape on more than a dozen times this season to convince myself that the 2017 Cadets Percussion line was no " 5th place " line. The Show Design pullded their line down to as low as 5th, imo. But if others here disagree with that assessment, and don't think the Show Design negatively impacted even their Percussion lines performance execution scores, thats cool and all too... no problem.

Jeff is right: no

There is zero context: no movement; no actual performing (no stress of competing on members, for example); and as you said previously no front ensemble.

Those are HUGE disparities between in the lot and on the field, and anyone trying to compare raking/rating on field based on in the lot videos will always be at a HUGE disadvantage.

[perc2100]

I believe that Show Design even seeps into the Percussion rankings these days now.

For example, without mentioning any Corps names here, one can go onto youtube and watch some of these listed Drumlines and compare the lines ourselves ( granted, its usually just the snares, tenors, bass ). Some of these drumlines were dragged down a bit by the Show Designs, imo. For example, my ears and eyes tell me that the Cadets had a far better drumline than " 5th " place from watching their line play on youtube. Also, for perspective, just a couple of years back, when the Bluecoats Show Design was not quite as good as this years, their Drumline ( still found there on youtube ) was WAYYY better than they were getting credit for. I personally do not think that this season's Bluecoats percussion line was as good as that of just 2 years ago. ( people here can youtube the 2 Bluecoats lines, and decide for themselves ). Was Academy's Percussion line this season at the same quality levels as that of Crossmen's line ? Hhmmnn.. I don't know about this. But Academy's Show Design might just have elevated their line to swim in these same elevated waters for their Drumline this season as well, imo.

I'll say this, regarding judging

Sometimes it's not just about "Cadets have a Top 3 design" but it's also "holy cow there are 6 amazing percussion designs & execution at this point of the year!"

Finals week in particular, the sections are at their peak as far as execution, maximizing phrasing & shaping, squeezing every last millimeter & thousandth of a point of effect possible, perfecting individual technique and quality of sound so it matches the rest of a member's peers, etc. There is so much minutia just in that type of stuff before even adding in the depth of orchestration and the subtlties of an arrangement.

Often it is impossible to pick up many of those aspects unless you are directly in front of the section (even in front of the battery or the front ensemble). The judge in the box is going by big-picture of the section while the field judge is focusing on minutia to come up with an averaged Percussion Score.

I guess my legit question to folks doubting the process or the ranking/rating of the sections is this:

When you're talking about placements tell me explicitly why you think a design is better than another in great detail. What, in your opinion for example, makes Cadets better-than-fifth place: tell me whom they're better than design-wise & what explicit aspects about their design are superior to their competitors?

I'm really not meaning to pick a fight, I'm just curious. Also, sometimes being 5th doesn't not mean you're not great: it just means there were maybe 4 incredibly awesome sections above you. And that's 100% OK

[BRASSO]

anyone trying to compare raking/rating on field based on in the lot videos will always be at a HUGE disadvantage.

However...Nobody on here said that lot videos are the sole basis upon which to gauge drumlines in their assessments and commentary on them. The" HUGE disadvantage' then goes to the respondant that does not reply to what actually was said, but instead responds in reply to what was said in partial only. My assessment that Show Design pushed the Cadets down to " 5th place " this year in Percussion was based upon lots videos on youtube AND from th live views at the lots, AND in live assessments of their line, MARCHING their percussion performances in shows I attended with Cadets in the show ( 3 ) and on the 7 live feeds from shows on the DCI Network in which Cadets drumline marched their shows, and I saw them there as well. This was what was said above. The notion that lots alone are a good guage of drumlines was even mentioned with its potential drawbacks with it alone as a gauge above as well above.

Edited August 14, 2016 by BRASSO

[dreamgrantor]

I asked my son, one of these drummers, what his thoughts are on the other drumlines on our way home this morning. He said, I don't know, I haven't seen any lot videos. Leads me to believe there is value in knowing what the book and the lines' ability to play it. Probably lends itself more to content, of course but there is value there. Do judges ever listen to lot videos? Interesting question....

[Wog]

So how does the actual "spread" fit in to phrases like "there were maybe 4 incredibly awesome sections above you" or "holy cow there are 6 amazing percussion designs & execution at this point of the year!"??

I get the fact we want to see who is the best in an ordinal ranking... but it also seems counter-intuitive that the spread on an "awesome" or "amazing" line can be such a boat anchor to the overall score.

[Yd11]

I asked my son, one of these drummers, what his thoughts are on the other drumlines on our way home this morning. He said, I don't know, I haven't seen any lot videos. Leads me to believe there is value in knowing what the book and the lines' ability to play it. Probably lends itself more to content, of course but there is value there. Do judges ever listen to lot videos? Interesting question....

As a drummer, I can confirm that this is totally correct. Where two or more drummers gather to talk about drumlines, lot videos will be watched. Yes, the movement does make it a somewhat different animal, but what we're talking about is how good a drumline is, not how well they contribute to the show. Plus, a dirty drumline can hide behind the hornline. And so, although I love crown (they're my favorite group), there is no way in heck that they are better than the cadets. The idea is laughable; you guys should watch some lot videos yourself.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Yd11

[dreamgrantor]

As a drummer, I can confirm that this is totally correct. Where two or more drummers gather to talk about drumlines, lot videos will be watched. Yes, the movement does make it a somewhat different animal, but what we're talking about is how good a drumline is, not how well they contribute to the show. Plus, a dirty drumline can hide behind the hornline. And so, although I love crown (they're my favorite group), there is no way in heck that they are better than the cadets. The idea is laughable; you guys should watch some lot videos yourself.

As the classic joke goes, how many snare drummers does it take to change a light bulb? 9, one to change it and eight others to tell them how the would do it better. Gotta love these competitors!

[Yd11]

As the classic joke goes, how many snare drummers does it take to change a light bulb? 9, one to change it and eight others to tell them how the would do it better. Gotta love these competitors!

It's true; I'm a bass drummer, and we (along with the quads) simply called them "glories"

[RickCogley]

I'm happy with the SCV win. No way Cadets or Blue Knights should have been scored that low. That's BS.

One thing we can say about lot videos is, if they cannot play it absolutely perfect standing still, it definitely won't be clean on the field.

Dirt is dirt.