Bobby L. Collins Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Just now, ftwdrummer said: Did you ever stop to consider that maybe...just maybe...some people actually enjoy things that you don't? Sure, and I get that. I mean, I don't know anyone personally who enjoys it, outside of a handful of colleagues who are currently teaching with a drum corps and are being paid to enjoy it.....and not even all of them actually do enjoy it. But that doesn't mean what's happening in modern drum corps is good, or right, or even beneficial to anyone but the handful of executives and corps directors who push it. What you're apparently asking me (and anyone else who loathes it) is to accept it is what it is, and to accept that it can't be toned down to reasonable, TOLERABLE levels. And I can't accept that. I won't. If you twist my arm, sure I'm going to say that I think it's an abomination, and it should be banned, but I know that's not going to happen. All I'm asking at this point is for corps to stop shoving high concept art down our throats, reel in the electronics and amplification, and stop putting the entire music department on the field. I get that you like it, and that you want the narrative to be that the majority of fans like it, which is demonstrably untrue. So perhaps instead of trying to open your eyes, I should simply ask you this. Did YOU ever stop to consider that maybe...just maybe...some people actually DON'T enjoy the things that you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouooga Posted August 10, 2017 Author Share Posted August 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said: I get that you like it, and that you want the narrative to be that the majority of fans like it, which is demonstrably untrue. Wait, how would one demonstrate this? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: there's still drums, brass instruments and color guard marching and playing. yes, electronics have been added. Why/ Cause you can and the technology is available. and for every band kid i know that may make fun of whats out there, i know just as many that love it. After 26 years of teaching, this year the last of any kids i taught is out there marching center snare at Phantom and loving it. His best friend aged out last year in Colts. While I may not have personally cared for every aspect of their shows, I made sure to see them and support them, just as i supported a friends daughter marching in Crown this summer. I walked away for 4 years because I refused to get past the amps added. Then I saw Phantom 08....and my love affair started anew. I got into WGI percussion heavily, and the love affair grew. I agree with Jeff here, and I think he hits on a few key points. 1) We still get plenty of brass, percussion, even marching (despite what some think) and some fabulous guard work 2) Much of the technology that was not around in the 70s or 80s (or it was too pricey) started to appear more and more in the commercial market in the 90s. With the availability of these tools it was only a matter of time before someone tried them. That came when top competitive bands began using these tools, especially in BOA. Some of this was overdone, even then. But there were glimpses of great ideas, and whether people like it or not drum corps designers were bound to take notice and eventually implement ways to use it themselves. We can ask the question "Was there more that could have been done to stop it?" but I don't know how you stop ideas and creativity. We live in a free country where ideas should be celebrated even when you disagree with them. It was never DCI's job to tell people "your ideas suck, go away." Nor was it DCI's job to say "there is only one way to do drum corps and we only wish to appeal to a certain type of person." Eventually someone was going to convince DCI and its' directors that trying amplification and electronic instruments needed to be tried. I am certainly not against them and have seen some great shows use these tools well (Bluecoats for example). So I do not wish to see electronics and amps leave, but I do believe we have hit a wall in terms of overuse and it may be time to pull back a bit. 3) Jeff's point about his teaching experiences and how proud he is of his students who have marched and loved it is important to keep in mind. I have had similar experiences. I've had many students march drum corps. Here is a quick example for you: I had one young man who marched a corps (will not name that group here) and it was a show I really didn't enjoy. Every time I saw him that summer he was full of joy and loving the show and the tour experience. It always reminded me that 1) we are not going to like everything, 2) the activity must remain about our youth, and they definitely live in a different culture from the one I grew-up in, and 3) drum & bugle corps is often a reflection of society, as are many forms of art, music, dance, theater. If you think you can stop these cultural forces from breaking through barriers and finding their way into the marching arts then you do not understand the human spirit and those who intend to push it, change it, modify it, expand it, and (in their minds) improve it. Edited August 10, 2017 by jwillis35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby L. Collins Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, ouooga said: Wait, how would one demonstrate this? By comparing the number of fans who pay money to go to contests and log into livestreams to those who simply can't be bothered anymore. Based upon the number of corps that have existed over the past 45 years, and the fact that humans are living longer than ever before, every single show throughout the season should be sold out day after day, year after year, but that's not the case. Instead, sunshine pumping proponents of summertime BOA boats ticket sales and headcounts at home-team venues were the vast majority of the ticket holders arrived and left on a school bus. Edited August 10, 2017 by Bobby L. Collins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouooga Posted August 10, 2017 Author Share Posted August 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said: By comparing the number of fans who pay money to go to contests and log into livestreams to those who simply can't be bothered anymore. Based upon the number of corps that have existed over the past 45 years, and the fact that humans are living longer than ever before, every single show throughout the season should be sold out day after day, year after year, but that's not the case. Instead, sunshine pumping proponents of summertime BOA boats ticket sales and headcounts at home-team venues were the vast majority of the ticket holders arrived and left on a school bus. There's some leaps in there, but ya, if you use the methodology of once a fan, always a fan, and assume all who don't purchase are doing so because they don't like the changes, then ya, I guess there's some logic there. Just was curious how you were doing your math. I appreciate the explanation. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby L. Collins Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, jwillis35 said: I agree with Jeff here, and I think he hits on a few key points. 1) We still get plenty of brass, percussion, even marching (despite what some think) and some fabulous guard work 2) Much of the technology that was not around in the 70s or 80s (or it was too pricey) started to appear more and more in the commercial market in the 90s. With the availability of these tools it was only a matter of time before someone tried them. That came when top competitive bands began using these tools, especially in BOA. Some of this was overdone, even then. But there were glimpses of great ideas, and whether people like it or not drum corps designers were bound to take notice and eventually implement ways to use it themselves. We can ask the question "Was there more that could have been done to stop it?" but I don't know how you stop ideas and creativity. We live in a free country where ideas should be celebrated even when you disagree with them. It was never DCI's job to tell people "your ideas sucks, go away." Nor was it DCI's job to say "there is only one way to do drum corps and we only wish to appeal to a certain type of person." Eventually someone was going to convince DCI and its' directors that trying amplification and electronic instruments needed to be tried. I am certainly not against them and have seen some great shows use these tools well (Bluecoats for example). So I do not wish to see electronics and amps leave, but I do believe we have hit a wall in terms of overuse and it may be time to pull back a bit. 3) Jeff's point about his teaching experiences and how proud he is of his students who have marched and loved it is important to keep in mind. I have had similar experiences. I had a young man who marched a corps (will not name that group here) and it was a show I really didn't enjoy. Every time I saw him that summer he was full of joy and loving the show and the tour experience. It always reminded me that 1) we are not going to like everything, 2) the activity must remain about our youth, and they definitely live in a different culture from the one I grew-up in, and 3) drum & bugle corps is often a reflection of society, as are many forms of art, music, dance, theater. If you think you can stop these cultural forces from breaking through barriers and finding their way into the marching arts then you do not understand the human spirit and those who intend to push it, change it, modify it, expand it, and (in their minds) improve it. I see no improvement in drum corps today. Tougher drill designed by a computer algorithm, sure, but that was already happening before DCI went full techno. It doesn't matter how much better the instruction or playing is today when it's buried beneath electronics or trickery. It doesn't matter how impressive the choreography and drill is when they're all wearing ridiculous outfits that even the most socially awkward nerds on the planet would tease and bully them for wearing. And it doesn't matter how hard the kids work when all their hard work is being overshadowed by the hubris of the design team and the corps' bank account. What I see and hear today is a parody of drum corps, if not a parody of performance art at large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortAndFast Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said: By comparing the number of fans who pay money to go to contests and log into livestreams to those who simply can't be bothered anymore. Based upon the number of corps that have existed over the past 45 years, and the fact that humans are living longer than ever before, every single show throughout the season should be sold out day after day, year after year, but that's not the case. Instead, sunshine pumping proponents of summertime BOA boats ticket sales and headcounts at home-team venues were the vast majority of the ticket holders arrived and left on a school bus. Objectively this is false. DCI tracks and publishes total season attendance, movie theater attendance, regionals attendance, championship attendance, live stream viewership. All are improved over the late '00s, and much improved over the mid 90s, and are trending up. Maybe they aren't as good as 1985 or 1975 - let's assume for the sake of argument they're not - they are still pretty good and improving. Can I ask - why are you concerned that DCI markets itself successfully to band kids? This would seem like a success - where else are you going to get future participants and fans? - but you've raised it as a point of concern in several of your posts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby L. Collins Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 1 minute ago, ShortAndFast said: Objectively this is false. DCI tracks and publishes total season attendance, movie theater attendance, regionals attendance, championship attendance, live stream viewership. All are improved over the late '00s, and much improved over the mid 90s, and are trending up. Maybe they aren't as good as 1985 or 1975 - let's assume for the sake of argument they're not - they are still pretty good and improving. Can I ask - why are you concerned that DCI markets itself successfully to band kids? This would seem like a success - where else are you going to get future participants and fans? - but you've raised it as a point of concern in several of your posts. That's the thing, they're not even marketing drum corps to band students today. They're marketing theatrical ballet wrapped up in a label made out of construction paper that says "drum corps" in crayon. And you have to consider that the talent pool is not finite. Music programs are being phased out of public schools, and if things in this country don't pick up, band will be among the first casualties. I mean, those well-versed in drum corps lore will tell you that's already happened once, and that in fact led to this very activity. So maybe there will come a day when corps directors are combing the streets, looking for anyone willing to learn how to play a horn or a drum, and spending the entire summer rebuilding drum and bugle corps one brick at a time. Frankly, I would almost welcome that. I am to the point now when I attempt to watch or listen to modern drum corps, my very heart is crying out "Anything but this.......". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) Quote I see no improvement in drum corps today. Tougher drill designed by a computer algorithm, sure, but that was already happening before DCI went full techno. jwillis35: I see plenty of improvement. So I disagree with you. Some of the top Open Class corps would beat out the 13th - 15th place corps back in the 70s and 80s. SCVC would likely have been in Finals in 1987. Brass playing is better on average. Tuning is better. Guards are more integrated and showing more skill than ever before. Quote It doesn't matter how much better the instruction or playing is today when it's buried beneath electronics or trickery. As much as we complain about electronics, and I feel their is a lot of overuse, the horns and brass are not all buried beneath the electronics. Their are plenty of corps doing it well, and some getting it right for a large portion of their show. I am hoping those that are not will begin to learn their lesson. More to the point, just because there are some issues with drum corps today, we must remember their were issues with it back in the day. That does not mean we go backwards. It means we modify, improve. Quote It doesn't matter how impressive the choreography and drill is when they're all wearing ridiculous outfits that even the most socially awkward nerds on the planet would tease and bully them for wearing. This is a disturbing comment to me. It tells me a lot about you. Those outfits are no more crazy than what we see on Broadway or in other types of theater and cinema. Your use of terms "socially awkward nerds" and inference that someone would "bully them" is both telling of an era you grew-up in and the kind of defunct reasoning you use to justify NOT doing something. Sadly I know a lot of old timers that no longer like the activity. That is bound to happen. You know what they do? Go away and find something else they like. If the activity has passed you by, then it has. I don't think anyone could have stopped this from happening. Today's younger generation seems to be enjoying DCI. The older generation will eventually die away and youth will prevail. That's how it works in life. Edited August 10, 2017 by jwillis35 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby L. Collins Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Disturbing? Well good. You SHOULD be disturbed. You SHOULD be disturbed that entire drum corps are wearing spandex and lycra color guard outfits. Because that SHOULD tell you exactly where Drum Corps International's priorities currently lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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