ContraFart Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 11 minutes ago, BDCorno said: OK, we have finally arrived at a diagnosis for your condition. This particular "art" moved YOU so profoundly that you are willing to ignore or throw out the objective criteria that you seek and demand allegiance to by the judges. Interesting. What was it about this show that leads you to throw out all technical and design-based criticism? You love Crown? Liked their uniforms? Do you do crazy over a group in green? Was something they played your all-time favorite piece of music? When you watch a show, do you focus in on the music, brass line, percussion, color guard only? Was it because they were in second and you simply wanted them to win? Much of this is what any judge has to deal with (though I'd certainly hope that they didn't have visceral feelings this strong) before being able to do their job. Everyone has biases, preferences and a myriad of reasons for them. You state that 2009 Crown moved "PEOPLE" in a way that their imperfections are dismissed. Don't speak for others, as there are many different motivations and reasons why people might have liked the show. Facts are that the color guard and visual shows were very good but not top drawer. Overriding that, simply because you lost your sh-t over it isn't the right thing. Sorry. You take me out of context. I said art moves people, I singled myself out as Crown 2009 being that art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Just now, ContraFart said: Now you are just being an as*hole Not being an a**, just trying to resolve your delima. You're wanting objective consistency in adjudication, well that is the only way to achieve you're desired results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Stu said: Your point was direct not abstract. My point is that there is wider subjective variance in DCI judging because there are fewer exact technical elements and even multiple correct technical elements i. e. Crowns brass approach vs BDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Stu said: Not being an a**, just trying to resolve your delima. You're wanting objective consistency in adjudication, well that is the only way to achieve you're desired results. I want consistency to be a goal so that the names on the judging sheet will mean less than the performance on the field. Edited August 23, 2017 by ContraFart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Just now, ContraFart said: My point is that there is wider subjective variance in DCI judging because there are fewer exact technical elements and even multiple correct technical elements i. e. Crowns brass approach vs BDs. You have not read nor studied the sheets; you have stated, not me, but you have stated that you do not have the education to judge, yet you make these definitive pronouncements as if they are facts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 minute ago, ContraFart said: gain very insightful. The point I am trying to get across is not to eliminate subjectivity, but to recognize that the subjective variance in DCI is much wider than in other subjectively judged sports because more than one set of objective criteria can be correct. (Again I point to the Crown vs BD brass debate) Also in order to create the most honest competitive environment, perception of preference should be mitigated as much as possible. The reason I have such a problem is that nobody with judging experience in the thread seems to want to mitigate the preferences. This also leads to more questions. You say that quality, depth, clarity and direction of design are important factors in determining adjudication. Are those not more in the control of the staff and not the MMs? Sure, to an extent. A corps that simply marches around in the "old fashioned way", making formations and such, has a built-in limitation to it. Designs that factor in characterizations, advanced movement concepts, communication of mood, for example, put more of the onus on the performer. It's always incumbent on the performer to perform whatever is asked of them with enough clarity and quality to communicate the design intent/quality...that's why the content scores can fluctuate with a good or bad performance. I'm not going to credit a horn line playing a killer bebop line, if the trumpets frack and gack their way through it....nor would a guard get full credit for content if three rifles dropped a difficult behind-the-back toss. While we are on that subject, and back to the SCV/BD color guard debate, SCV simply outperformed BD in the first two rounds, and were scored accordingly. BD had a better rep and content, but they didn't perform it. The scores in those rounds were no surprise. They did a near-perfect job at finals, and it didn't surprise me that they won the caption like they did, and with the spread. I'll touch on the brass debate, as it's a real "apples and oranges" situation between BD and Crown, as it has been for years now. From my perspective, I think BD should have won horns at finals, but Crown the Ott, all biases aside. Both lines are of impeccable quality, but take different approaches in terms of overall sound, book and what they attempt. My only criticism of Crown is that they don't take chances in terms of range. High notes in the trumpets? Not happening, not gonna happen. Put them in a contest in sectional or full ensemble runs/brass line tricky stuff, there is nobody better. I love how Matt encourages the old-time volume that I love with drum corps. BD has more of a meaty sound, and they "go there" with the high trumpet work. Half a click behind Crown on the technical stuff at times and not quite as consistent there, but a riskier book from a range perspective. I know that BD brass staff eschews the pedantic, "drill the part over and over until it's clean" approach that Crown takes (though I sort of agree with the latter when it comes to cleaning tech passages), but that's the way they deal with it. It's truly a crap shoot (not literally lol) trying to judge and seperate those two lines. BUT...the job of the judge is to RANK and RATE. Could biases and preferences make a difference in a decision there? Sure. I hope you don't think I fail to acknowledge that fact. In a tie, a decision must me made. How you arrive at it may or may not be bias/preference related. I'm sure it's different with every judge...all you can do is train them up and trust that the training meshes with the experience and restraint of the judge to get a fair decision. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Just now, Stu said: You have not read nor studied the sheets; you have stated, not me, but you have stated that you do not have the education to judge, yet you make these definitive pronouncements as if they are facts. Because I know what a triple axle is. I know that all skaters have to do it. I can see with my own eyes when its not landed. Drum Corps does not have elements equal to that and I don't need the sheets in front of me to know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 8 minutes ago, ContraFart said: You take me out of context. I said art moves people, I singled myself out as Crown 2009 being that art. No, I really didn't. If you replaced "people" with "me", it would have reflected that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, ContraFart said: I want consistency to be a goal so that the names on the judging sheet will mean less than the performance on the field. There is no way to check to see if you would answer this honestly, my guess is you will go to the DCI recaps if you do answer, but... I bet a dollar to a doughnut that you can quickly name twenty-three WC corps and their styles but can't quickly give us the names of ten judges. Go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, ContraFart said: I want consistency to be a goal so that the names on the judging sheet will mean less than the performance on the field. I believe we have that in general...I'm just not sure where you think this is not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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