queenanne_1536 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) I'm usually an observer, but thought I would chime on in this one. Re: herd judging - it is a reality and there is evidence of that. All one needs to do is go to: http://www.fromthepressbox.com/2011season.htm The first two shows of the season perfectly illustrate heard judging mentality. The scores from the first show were withheld until after the second show. The judges at the second show had nothing to go by and it shows. Crown dropped from first (3.6 over Cadets) to 4th (2 points behind Cadets). Out of 8 corps, the places only remained the same for 3 corps. Once the scores from the second show were revealed, the remaining shows throughout the season remained in line with that. The first two shows are how it should always be, especially in the early season. But once judges have past judges marks to go by, that is their guide, and they don't look at each show from a fresh perspective. There is not such thing as "on any given night" anymore. Edited August 23, 2017 by queenanne_1536 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, BDCorno said: No, I really didn't. If you replaced "people" with "me", it would have reflected that. 2 hours ago, ContraFart said: Every once in a while there is art that moves people in a way that its imperfections are dismissed. 2009 Crown is that show for me. 2 seperate sentences. 1st is objective 2nd is personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 minute ago, ContraFart said: 2 seperate sentences. 1st is objective 2nd is personal. No, you tried to justify your personal view/feelings by portraying a larger "moves people" statement in the first sentence. Nice try. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, ContraFart said: Because I know what a triple axle is. I know that all skaters have to do it. I can see with my own eyes when its not landed. Drum Corps does not have elements equal to that and I don't need the sheets in front of me to know that. DCI has judging criteria concerning intonation for brass, but by referencing Axels in skating what you seem to desire is compulsories in DCI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, BDCorno said: I believe we have that in general...I'm just not sure where you think this is not the case. I'm not exactly saying its not the case. I am saying the logical conclusion to the subjective variance argument is that it definitely has the potential to be the case and the lay person wouldn't be able to tell, which is why judging conspiracies will always exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Stu said: DCI has judging criteria concerning intonation for brass, but by referencing Axels in skating what you seem to desire is compulsories in DCI. I am not saying that is what I want. I am saying the lack of compulsories puts more weight on the subjective opinion of the judge, which can lead to wider variances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said: I'm usually an observer, but thought I would chime on in this one. Re: herd judging - it is a reality and there is evidence of that. All one needs to do is go to: http://www.fromthepressbox.com/2011season.htm The first two shows of the season perfectly illustrate heard judging mentality. The scores from the first show were withheld until after the second show. The judges at the second show had nothing to go by and it shows. Crown dropped from first (3.6 over Cadets) to 4th (2 points behind Cadets). Out of 8 corps, the places only remained the same for 3 corps. Once the scores from the second show were revealed, the remaining shows throughout the season remained in line with that. The first two shows are how it should always be, especially in the early season. But once judges have past judges marks to go by, that is their guide, and they don't look at each show from a fresh perspective. There is not such thing as "on any given night" anymore. Whatever you want to call it, the herd mentality approach to scoring is in fact what DCI requires of its judges. Each night's individual score is in fact secondary to where that score relates to the other corps. The downside to this method is quite obvious, in that wherever you place at the beginning of the season, relative to the other corps, is de facto defining how far you must go to overtake one or all other corps. Because judges are told to look at relative placements over actual individual scoring. When scores are tabulated, the most important aspect of the results is NOT whether a corps improved or regressed. But rather, whether the corps is "better" or "worse" than the corps ahead of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Just now, ContraFart said: I'm not exactly saying its not the case. I am saying the logical conclusion to the subjective variance argument is that it definitely has the potential to be the case and the lay person wouldn't be able to tell, which is why judging conspiracies will always exist. Well, we're now reduced to "could bes" and "might happens". These things could be and might happen, but you'd hope not. That's where it's up to the judges training program, the judges they pick to judge, and how they are assigned to carry the day and eliminate (or at least minimize) any potential for a problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, BDCorno said: Well, we're now reduced to "could bes" and "might happens". These things could be and might happen, but you'd hope not. That's where it's up to the judges training program, the judges they pick to judge, and how they are assigned to carry the day and eliminate (or at least minimize) any potential for a problem. But the thread topic is about conspiracies. All I am trying to do is say that there are enough logical holes in the system, any criticism can be valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c mor Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 11 minutes ago, ContraFart said: I am not saying that is what I want. I am saying the lack of compulsories puts more weight on the subjective opinion of the judge, which can lead to wider variances. Now you understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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