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On 9/21/2018 at 2:00 PM, jaylogan said:

I don’t buy that argument. It’s already a biased judging activity. That’s what judging comes down to at the end of the day.

I agree. Judging is biased, especially when the judges do not agree with my opinions!😊

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15 hours ago, xandandl said:

no matter what arrangement is used to achieve caption award status, it's still just a judge's opinion...not an infallible, repeatable fact but a perspective whether rendered by one person or more.

In my perspective from over fifty years in the activity, FINALS NIGHT has all the glitz and glamour but not always the best performance(s) of the week. Semis, even prelims, should not be discounted. jmho.

if finals night doesn't have the best performances, the judges should then score it appropriately. Are you implying they don't do that because of the glitz and glamour?

Edited by Jeff Ream
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15 hours ago, LabMaster said:

So those corps whose guard was in a position to be top guard, who had an issue with a judge during the past year/s, they'd be happy to see that judge in finals?  Say for instance a corps who had issues with Ms. Torchia?  So they get top guard in quarters and semis the awwww too bad, the finals judge thinks some other guard was better.  Oh and that guard never beat you throughout the season.  Yeah.  Give me the three nightcsveragecto make sure something like that doesn't happen.  And it seems that happens with GE.

or follow the procedures in place to protest the judge. offer up concrete proof of the judges bias thru numbers and commentary. problem solved

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13 hours ago, TRacer said:

SCV went on 4th from last in ‘84, and took 1st outright In Field Brass with a 10/10. I can still hear my frack on the recording during the nasty blind back up move the lead baris (there were only four of us) did in Tenderland during the sop feature and wonder if that hurt the upstairs score. :doh: 

Cadets 87 in percussion. Listen for it, you can hear the tiny ensemble glitch. But it happened.

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3 hours ago, xandandl said:

the highlighted part is exactly the point of difference between the wise like your and mine opinion on this and then the others who disagree that it is a better barometer. Neither side has convinced the other; or at least those favoring the one night stand have not convinced me of the benefits other than that their favorite corps/guard they say is primed to peak at Finals (which doesn't always happen.)  

Do you remember how Beth Fabrizio, the horn judge, was castigated mercilessly here on DCP because she scored Cadets' hornline on a given night over a usual and expected favorite? It wasn't bias but an outlier opinion on the performances of that given night. Funny how the one night standers don't review their own posts on such scoring.

only cause well, that brass section wasn't all that LOL

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3 hours ago, xandandl said:

the highlighted part is exactly the point of difference between the wise like your and mine opinion on this and then the others who disagree that it is a better barometer. Neither side has convinced the other; or at least those favoring the one night stand have not convinced me of the benefits other than that their favorite corps/guard they say is primed to peak at Finals (which doesn't always happen.)  

Do you remember how Beth Fabrizio, the horn judge, was castigated mercilessly here on DCP because she scored Cadets' hornline on a given night over a usual and expected favorite? It wasn't bias but an outlier opinion on the performances of that given night. Funny how the one night standers don't review their own posts on such scoring.

This makes little sense. All season long, it's about one show at a time. That night's performance determines that night's scores. And now you're talking about what "the better barometer" is. The better barometer of what, exactly? Of which corps had the best brass section for the entire year? Or which corps had the best brass section on Finals night? If it's about the former, then why not just average the scores of all three nights to determine the overall DCI Champion, if that's the better "barometer?" (Perhaps because there would be complete chaos if a corps walked away with a DCI Championship trophy after coming in something lower than 1st place on Saturday night. And rightfully so!)

The best barometer to determine which corps should win DCI Finals is the corps who earns the highest scores at DCI Finals. It's the marquis event on the DCI calendar. It's not about being given extra credit for what you did the previous night or at the regionals or during the first half of the season, it's winner take all. And I'm not sure why that concept frightens so many people around here. Perhaps you think DCI has a serious rogue judge problem filled with incompetent judges who sacrifice their integrity to settle some personal vendettas against certain corps to help their favorites, but that would be a separate discussion. It's also all but impossible to prove. But by all means, if you've got proof, spill it. I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.

Bottom line, if you're in favor of three-night averaging for caption awards, but NOT for determining the overall DCI Champion, ask yourself why. The answer to that question is everything. 

 

("Ladies and gentlemen, the Jim Ott Memorial Brass Award goes to the high brass winner, the Skunkville Kadets! They didn't actually get the highest score in brass performance tonight, but they were REALLY good last night. And well, you know, they've been beating the Binghamton Blue Raiders all season in brass, so even though Binghamton was awesome tonight and scored first in brass performance, Skunkville gets the trophy because they've been SO good all year long and they just had a bit of an off night tonight. You know, on the biggest night and the biggest stage of the year. Besides, we don't really trust our judges to make the right calls on these things, so you can't take tonight's scores seriously. The scores of the previous two nights, though, where Skunkville was ahead? Clearly those were the right scores. No funny stuff going on there.")

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10 minutes ago, seen-it-all said:

This makes little sense. All season long, it's about one show at a time. That night's performance determines that night's scores. And now you're talking about what "the better barometer" is. The better barometer of what, exactly? Of which corps had the best brass section for the entire year? Or which corps had the best brass section on Finals night? If it's about the former, then why not just average the scores of all three nights to determine the overall DCI Champion, if that's the better "barometer?" (Perhaps because there would be complete chaos if a corps walked away with a DCI Championship trophy after coming in something lower than 1st place on Saturday night. And rightfully so!)

The best barometer to determine which corps should win DCI Finals is the corps who earns the highest scores at DCI Finals. It's the marquis event on the DCI calendar. It's not about being given extra credit for what you did the previous night or at the regionals or during the first half of the season, it's winner take all. And I'm not sure why that concept frightens so many people around here. Perhaps you think DCI has a serious rogue judge problem filled with incompetent judges who sacrifice their integrity to settle some personal vendettas against certain corps to help their favorites, but that would be a separate discussion. It's also all but impossible to prove. But by all means, if you've got proof, spill it. I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.

Bottom line, if you're in favor of three-night averaging for caption awards, but NOT for determining the overall DCI Champion, ask yourself why. The answer to that question is everything. 

 

("Ladies and gentlemen, the Jim Ott Memorial Brass Award goes to the high brass winner, the Skunkville Kadets! They didn't actually get the highest score in brass performance tonight, but they were REALLY good last night. And well, you know, they've been beating the Binghamton Blue Raiders all season in brass, so even though Binghamton was awesome tonight and scored first in brass performance, Skunkville gets the trophy because they've been SO good all year long and they just had a bit of an off night tonight. You know, on the biggest night and the biggest stage of the year. Besides, we don't really trust our judges to make the right calls on these things, so you can't take tonight's scores seriously. The scores of the previous two nights, though, where Skunkville was ahead? Clearly those were the right scores. No funny stuff going on there.")

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17 minutes ago, seen-it-all said:

This makes little sense. All season long, it's about one show at a time. That night's performance determines that night's scores. And now you're talking about what "the better barometer" is. The better barometer of what, exactly? Of which corps had the best brass section for the entire year? Or which corps had the best brass section on Finals night? If it's about the former, then why not just average the scores of all three nights to determine the overall DCI Champion, if that's the better "barometer?" (Perhaps because there would be complete chaos if a corps walked away with a DCI Championship trophy after coming in something lower than 1st place on Saturday night. And rightfully so!)

The best barometer to determine which corps should win DCI Finals is the corps who earns the highest scores at DCI Finals. It's the marquis event on the DCI calendar. It's not about being given extra credit for what you did the previous night or at the regionals or during the first half of the season, it's winner take all. And I'm not sure why that concept frightens so many people around here. Perhaps you think DCI has a serious rogue judge problem filled with incompetent judges who sacrifice their integrity to settle some personal vendettas against certain corps to help their favorites, but that would be a separate discussion. It's also all but impossible to prove. But by all means, if you've got proof, spill it. I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.

Bottom line, if you're in favor of three-night averaging for caption awards, but NOT for determining the overall DCI Champion, ask yourself why. The answer to that question is everything. 

 

("Ladies and gentlemen, the Jim Ott Memorial Brass Award goes to the high brass winner, the Skunkville Kadets! They didn't actually get the highest score in brass performance tonight, but they were REALLY good last night. And well, you know, they've been beating the Binghamton Blue Raiders all season in brass, so even though Binghamton was awesome tonight and scored first in brass performance, Skunkville gets the trophy because they've been SO good all year long and they just had a bit of an off night tonight. You know, on the biggest night and the biggest stage of the year. Besides, we don't really trust our judges to make the right calls on these things, so you can't take tonight's scores seriously. The scores of the previous two nights, though, where Skunkville was ahead? Clearly those were the right scores. No funny stuff going on there.")

I am sorry you are having a bad day which may have prompted your over-reaction. My statement throughout is that the Finals night performance is not always the best performance. Ask any of the lower 6 at Finals and why so often their scores decrease from their prelim and semi performance. Having sat in the DCI & WGI "judging box" for championships from the start and occasionally over the years, I do know there have been many issues with judges favoring one corps/guard styles more than others, which is why certain judges (most frequently visual and guard) are lamented and disdained on these forums. Name calling here isn't appropriate; that's for the post-season judges' meetings, the weekly judging teleconference, and the (much needed) rotation of judging administrators and caption head.

I didn't raise any objections about the Founders Trophy being awarded based on a 3 night average. That's your straw man objection. Certainly there are several DCI corps whose history would have favored that if we review the placements and scores. Star of Indiana '92 is one who comes to mind. No system is infallible.  I hope you have a better day.

 

 

Edited by xandandl

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1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

only cause well, that brass section wasn't all that LOL

I was at the show in LaCrosse, Wis. when this happened. I sincerely doubt whether you were any where near it.

If you viewed the show only via computer, you may not have realized the weather conditions which caused mist that rose during Crown's performance which effected their intonation tremendously...in some parts of the field a fog even developed. That caused fazing. That same show a wonderful rainbow appeared behind the bluffs over looking the stadium which elated the crowd and Blue Stars but further dampened the feelings of the other corps' mms who shook their head at the changing weather conditions under which each corps performed. As I had sponsored mms both in Cadets and Crown that season and had the chance to visit with them and their sections, my perspective is from first hand experience and reaction. Beth Fabrizio scored them as she experienced them on the field that night.

 

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1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

if finals night doesn't have the best performances, the judges should then score it appropriately. Are you implying they don't do that because of the glitz and glamour?

Some people over dramatize Finals as the end all. What you infer is not what I said at all. 

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