Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward

[cixelsyd]

2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

tics were subjective.

(I knew that already - just in case you were in doubt.)

Quote

I have never denied what is in place is subjective, nor have you seen my agree with the claims DCI encourages all to think alike. In fact, you really haven't read a #### word I have typed.

I read these words:

On 6/9/2019 at 12:04 AM, Jeff Ream said:

trends

On 6/10/2019 at 2:06 PM, Jeff Ream said:

trends

On 6/12/2019 at 12:26 PM, Jeff Ream said:

trends

trends 

23 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

trends

To be fair, yes, I also saw you speak the usual company lines about sheet criteria, rank and rate, call it as you see it, and all the other judging ideals which I am convinced they (and you) really do strive to carry out.  But you do not address the logical paradox of how "trends" can be imposed on subjective scoring in so many ways (corps staff, caption chiefs, judge administrators, irate fans) without artificially dampening legitimate differences of opinion.

Maybe you truly believe there is no issue.  But I think that needs more of a response than:

Edited June 13, 2019 by cixelsyd

[Jeff Ream]

1 hour ago, cixelsyd said:

(I knew that already - just in case you were in doubt.)

I read these words:

To be fair, yes, I also saw you speak the usual company lines about sheet criteria, rank and rate, call it as you see it, and all the other judging ideals which I am convinced they (and you) really do strive to carry out.  But you do not address the logical paradox of how "trends" can be imposed on subjective scoring in so many ways (corps staff, caption chiefs, judge administrators, irate fans) without artificially dampening legitimate differences of opinion.

Maybe you truly believe there is no issue.  But I think that needs more of a response than:

yes trends. if a corps is scoring in a certain range, and then WAM out of nowhere a huge drop or increase...doesn't that peak your curiousity? Doesn't always mean the judge screwed the pooch either. If you judge your sheet and the show of the day and the commentary supports the score...no problem. But yes they will and SHOULD look for trends. The corps selected them, so therefore, they should follow their mandate. This isn't something a select few corps decided, this was decided by the collective body. Really, it's not a hard concept to grasp, yet you seem to struggle.

 

and for the last 5 years, I see less and less of an issue, because I truly see in 98% of the cases the judges doing their sheet and the show of the day. 

[Stu]

On 6/4/2019 at 8:54 AM, acolli17 said:

 

 

On 6/4/2019 at 12:44 PM, cixelsyd said:

 

 

On 6/4/2019 at 5:31 PM, Jeff Ream said:

 

This all started because I proposed an idea in line with the request of the original poster. The conversation went sideways. So in order to straighten this back out, I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who has vast experience with the psychology of competition and sport. He has worked with all types of competition training including Olympic trials, many of which utilize observed judging just like the marching arts, and he has enjoyed seeing DCI over the years. So, I asked him about the rabbit trail of this thread. Here is a summary of what he said:

A trial jury consisting of people with various backgrounds, education and personal bias can deliberate, reread transcripts, deliberate again, spend days compromising on their bias, then hopefully come to a conclusion. However, those needing to make immediate decisions do not have that luxury. If someone, or a group, had to contemplate and mull over the things being presented in real time it would be impossible to make even simple choices without falling behind or worse.

So, because of the sheer complexity of the transmission of live information, when judges are in real time situations they must rely on, believe it or not, Bias; or more specifically Cognitive Bias. It allows people to reach conclusions quickly based on their education, training, knowledge of historical data, and personal experience.

Drum Corps and all of marching arts is artistic expression; and as far as we know life/death or possible incarceration factors are not determined by the adjudicators. And we all can agree, save a few, that defining quality within artistic expression is purely subjective. Educated. trained. and experienced opinion is required yes, but it is still opinion. We can all agree that the marching arts judges must make quick decisions on the fly in real time. And we all agree if a bunch of judges were pulled from many different mind-sets the ratings, rankings, scores would be, as Jeff put it, out of whack.

So, to help create consistency in observed adjudication like ice dancing and drum corps, human bias is, again believe it or not, not eliminated. We just make sure the judges have similar education, similar training, similar historical knowledge, and similar experience. Then we put them through trials to make sure the Cognitive Bias of each and every judge is pretty much in the same strike zone.  Thus very close consistency while judging observed live situations arises. It leads to trends, some say slotting, but it is consistent.

Switching to having highly qualified professionals create the sheets, be in charge of training on how to interpret, and adjudicating would, according to the psychology of competition, yield different results in the years going forward than years past; but those results would still be just as fair and consistent as the previous years. Just different. And since this is artistic expression, the corps would just adjust to the different evaluation of those judges with the different Cognitive Bias than the current judges. And after a few shows under the belt, new trends and new so called slotting would start to materilize, but with ratings, rankings, and scores based on the new system.

That shift, even though it would still create consistency, would, of course, still be considered as ‘out of whack’ for the established who are so ingrained with the belief that the current way is the only best way to determine good v bad drum corps. But so it goes....

Edited June 13, 2019 by Stu

[Jeff Ream]

So people with no clue about drum corps should create the sheets. Oh I see that going over well. 

 

An idea: see if you can get a corps to propose it next January. If one thinks it’s worthy I’ll listen 

[Stu]

2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

So people with no clue about drum corps should create the sheets. Oh I see that going over well. 

 

An idea: see if you can get a corps to propose it next January. If one thinks it’s worthy I’ll listen 

No clue about what is used and done in drum corps. Hmmm. Let's see:

Pros in Symphonies, Jazz, Funk, Rock play Bb brass; what do drum corps use? Pros in Symphonies, Jazz, Funk, and some Rock play Vibes and other Mallets; what do drum corps use? Pros in Rock, Funk, and Jazz play Rudiments and their variations along with liner grooves on drums, many times with multiple percussionists playing different drums; what types of drum writing do drum corps play? Pros in Rock, Funk, and Jazz use Guitars and Keys; what do drum corps use? Pros on Broadway and many Rock groups choreograph their on stage movement, prop movement, and dance; what do drum corps do? (if you say 'corps march dang it' to that question, well while there is some of that element in today's drum corps, that archaic response based on the modern staging designs will be laughable). Oh, and many Pros tour and play in venues like Lucas Stadium in front of massive crowds; what do corps do?

I guess the pros would no nothing about what a drum corps does now at all!!

The shift wouldn't go well for the closed minded trapped in their own way of seeing drum corps, cough, cough. But that has happened a plethora of times since 1972. It would be convincing corps to give up controling the words put on the sheets, and give up telling the judges how to interpret the sheets when evaluating them; that would be the hardest sell. So getting a corps to propose it from the inside would be a trick.

Nevertheless, if there is a corps that might, just might, be persuaded to be open to trying to sell it say in the GE captions, if it could benifit them and be shown that it would likely help DCI, it would be the Blue Devils They are already so well structured to adapt to the changing tides that they would just write to the new sheets and new interps without a glitch, and likely go on being winners. But just with a fresh new GE show design look, direction, and feel.

That said. This is a DCP thread. One that merely wanted spitball thinking concerning out of the box ideas for future creative changes. To have fun proposing the ideas. It even has the word game in the title. So to think I would approach a corps with this, even though I personally like it, is not my intent.

Edited June 14, 2019 by Stu

[Jeff Ream]

4 hours ago, Stu said:

No clue about what is used and done in drum corps. Hmmm. Let's see:

Pros in Symphonies, Jazz, Funk, Rock play Bb brass; what do drum corps use? Pros in Symphonies, Jazz, Funk, and some Rock play Vibes and other Mallets; what do drum corps use? Pros in Rock, Funk, and Jazz play Rudiments and their variations along with liner grooves on drums, many times with multiple percussionists playing different drums; what types of drum writing do drum corps play? Pros in Rock, Funk, and Jazz use Guitars and Keys; what do drum corps use? Pros on Broadway and many Rock groups choreograph their on stage movement, prop movement, and dance; what do drum corps do? (if you say 'corps march dang it' to that question, well while there is some of that element in today's drum corps, that archaic response based on the modern staging designs will be laughable). Oh, and many Pros tour and play in venues like Lucas Stadium in front of massive crowds; what do corps do?

I guess the pros would no nothing about what a drum corps does now at all!!

The shift wouldn't go well for the closed minded trapped in their own way of seeing drum corps, cough, cough. But that has happened a plethora of times since 1972. It would be convincing corps to give up controling the words put on the sheets, and give up telling the judges how to interpret the sheets when evaluating them; that would be the hardest sell. So getting a corps to propose it from the inside would be a trick.

Nevertheless, if there is a corps that might, just might, be persuaded to be open to trying to sell it say in the GE captions, if it could benifit them and be shown that it would likely help DCI, it would be the Blue Devils They are already so well structured to adapt to the changing tides that they would just write to the new sheets and new interps without a glitch, and likely go on being winners. But just with a fresh new GE show design look, direction, and feel.

That said. This is a DCP thread. One that merely wanted spitball thinking concerning out of the box ideas for future creative changes. To have fun proposing the ideas. It even has the word game in the title. So to think I would approach a corps with this, even though I personally like it, is not my intent.

get a corps to propose it. just because they are in expert in one field doesn't automatically make them an expert in everything. 

[cixelsyd]

19 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

But you do not address the logical paradox of how "trends" can be imposed on subjective scoring in so many ways (corps staff, caption chiefs, judge administrators, irate fans) without artificially dampening legitimate differences of opinion.

 

17 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

yes trends. if a corps is scoring in a certain range, and then WAM out of nowhere a huge drop or increase...doesn't that peak your curiousity? Doesn't always mean the judge screwed the pooch either. If you judge your sheet and the show of the day and the commentary supports the score...no problem. But yes they will and SHOULD look for trends. The corps selected them, so therefore, they should follow their mandate. This isn't something a select few corps decided, this was decided by the collective body. Really, it's not a hard concept to grasp, yet you seem to struggle.

 

and for the last 5 years, I see less and less of an issue, because I truly see in 98% of the cases the judges doing their sheet and the show of the day. 

I requoted the point of my previous post above, in case you ever decide to address it.

[cixelsyd]

 

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if a corps is scoring in a certain range, and then WAM out of nowhere a huge drop or increase...doesn't that peak your curiousity?

No, because that NEVER HAPPENS. 

But let me think back... way back... like, mid-1980s.  Aha, there was one of each back then.  But they both had explanations that were public knowledge to anyone following the activity.  Both the drop and the increase were obvious from any vantage point.  (The improved corps was so obvious, we knew as soon as we got into town and heard their rehearsal reverberating in the distance.) 

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Doesn't always mean the judge screwed the pooch either.

Agreed.  I think I have said as much several times already.

Quote

If you judge your sheet and the show of the day and the commentary supports the score...no problem.

You keep saying this, and I keep letting it go... but now you are piquing my curiosity.  Has there really been a problem with judges giving scores that contradict their commentary?  And if so, convince me there is ever a case where a judge cannot defend themselves.  Any competent show commentary will have 12 minutes full of both positive and critical remarks, more than enough of either to point back to if challenged.

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But yes they will and SHOULD look for trends.

Okay, assume your power of persuasion has me on the verge of agreement...

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and for the last 5 years, I see less and less of an issue, because I truly see in 98% of the cases the judges doing their sheet and the show of the day. 

So how do you "see" whether a judge evaluates the show of the day accurately?  Well, you must be there too.

I do not know how it works in Tournament of Bands, where you judge.  But in DCI, there is a tour where corps are each doing two dozen or more contests in a season, and a typical tour day has two, three or four different contests scattered across the nation.  It is not possible for a judge administrator to be everywhere their judges are, in order to assess these "trends" adequately.  If there is truly a need for this level of oversight, we have two options:

1.  Provide as many judge administrators as judges, so that they can be everywhere too.

2.  Have a central judge administrator make calls on what the appropriate "trend" is for performances, some of which they have not even witnessed.

Option 2 would be slotting in absentia.  How is that appropriate?  You know, we tell people on this board all the time that if they were not at the event, they should give benefit-of-the-doubt to the judges who were there.

[Stu]

9 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

get a corps to propose it. just because they are in expert in one field doesn't automatically make them an expert in everything. 

A professional music expert with B-flat brass instruments, music theory, ensemble performance, balance, intonation, etc does not make them an expert at Nuclear Physics. That is true. So, you are correct in that it doesn't make you an expert at everything! However, it does make that professional music expert qualified to evaluate the aforementioned musical skill sets. By the way, you never answered the question: what key brass instruments do DCI corps use?

And please, this is DCP. It is thread banter. Nothing more.  So stop with the 'contact a corps' stuff.

[Jeff Ream]

4 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

 

I requoted the point of my previous post above, in case you ever decide to address it.

oh I get it. you're not. and I leave for disney in 2 days, so I have other pursuits to follow to continue engaging you