Jeff Ream Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 hour ago, MikeD said: I don't see where Jeff ever claimed interpreting a sheet is anything other than subjective. Jeff belongs to a judging association that has a band circuit, TOB. Judges undergo "education, training, and experience" that make up the world of TOB. Bands compete there knowing that they will receive an evaluation based on that "education, training, and experience". You could give the TOB sheets to anybody outside of that world, and those people may provide a very different perspective, since they do not have the TOB "education, training, and experience". Are they invalid results? No, not necessarily. But, they may not be "TOB" results. Bands join TOB with an expectation that they will be part of that world. Throwing them a curve by having judges without a TOB background work a TOB show is not part of what they signed up for when they joined. This is especially important for the bands, since championship eligibility and seedings are based on season-long results. and the sheets are very similar to those used many other place, including in drum corps. in indoor, we use the WGI sheets. if you're a DCI member, you want people with the training you mentioned above. if you fly in a guest panel, who has no idea the local tolerances and norms, and the results are whacked out, yeah people will be ###### off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 i'm still waiting for jetpacks 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 20 minutes ago, Stu said: MikeD and Fran. I never advocated just throwing a non drum corps professional in hidgely pidgely. That was the accusation by Jeff which started our tiff. Nope; go back and look at all of my posts. I advocated for non drum corps professionals to create the sheets, define the interpretation of critera, and revamp the entire system. Not only tump over the apple cart but to tear it apart and rebuild it with their mindset. It would be fair and equal for all corps, just different than the current system. As for the objective/subjective issue, I am just trying to get Jeff to admit that his adjudicating is just as subjective as any other artistic Interpritation. i never claimed otherwise, but you can't read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Just now, Lance said: i'm still waiting for jetpacks only f the wings are really big Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said: and the sheets are very similar to those used many other place, including in drum corps. in indoor, we use the WGI sheets. if you're a DCI member, you want people with the training you mentioned above. if you fly in a guest panel, who has no idea the local tolerances and norms, and the results are whacked out, yeah people will be ###### off. Ding ding ding!!! Now honesty wins out!!! Tolerances and norms exist in DCI also. That is what most people identify as slotting, clone judging, and the other closed minded habits developed by competent but like minded judges who have no desire for outside professional interpretation. If professional outsiders do come in, and are not trained in the established way of tolerences and norms, the results are deemed 'out if whack' instead of deemed as what they really are which is merely alternate ways of evaluating artistic expression that are just as valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 hour ago, MikeD said: Well then, looking at the above, I am totally against having "non drum corps professionals...create the sheets, define the interpretation of critera, and revamp the entire system". I think having music and visual people from outside the marching/music arts participate and present their own viewpoints and experiences and how they, see things is a great idea. But no, I am not so dismissive of those who work in this little world today as you seem to be. Please note the subject matter of the thread and what the OP was seeking. I am not being dismissive; I am just presenting an idea of doing something never tried. As per the request of the OP. And am defending the idea as being just as valid as the current system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 8 hours ago, Stu said: As for the objective/subjective issue, I am just trying to get Jeff to admit that his adjudicating is just as subjective as any other artistic Interpritation. 7 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: i never claimed otherwise, but you can't read. I think you have claimed otherwise... every time you say "trend". Subjective judging of art involves opinions. Note that "opinions" is plural. There is no way to force subjective judging of art to have only one "correct" opinion. The idea that for any given caption, we can take ten different judges and the thousands of things they assess in a performance/design, and boil them all down to obey a uniform "trend", is a process that denies and defies subjectivity. Any additional steps taken to investigate, impeach, or remove judges based on deviation from "the trend" take us much further down that rabbit hole. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waliman4444 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 As an aside: Jeff "Tain " Watts, Wynton's drummer{first quintet} ..told me at the Allentown show that he's a fan of drum corps...I think he'd be an excellent resource for this activity in his area of expertise..IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 11 hours ago, Stu said: Ding ding ding!!! Now honesty wins out!!! Tolerances and norms exist in DCI also. That is what most people identify as slotting, clone judging, and the other closed minded habits developed by competent but like minded judges who have no desire for outside professional interpretation. If professional outsiders do come in, and are not trained in the established way of tolerences and norms, the results are deemed 'out if whack' instead of deemed as what they really are which is merely alternate ways of evaluating artistic expression that are just as valid. do you fly in DCI judges to judge DCA and have them apply DCI tolerances? Sure if you want to be shot. Whoever said otherwise? Oh I know, you're all about honesty ( until called out). and IMO, i have a hunch it was far less than the scores as to why you weren't asked back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 3 hours ago, waliman4444 said: As an aside: Jeff "Tain " Watts, Wynton's drummer{first quintet} ..told me at the Allentown show that he's a fan of drum corps...I think he'd be an excellent resource for this activity in his area of expertise..IMHO love to have him come in and give feedback, but not scores unless he went through the training. I know a few years ago USBands had someone who was alumni ( i forget his name....i know i liked the guys playing with his band...) and had never really judged. let's just say results and happiness was very mixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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