jwillis35 Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Gantang said: But, you mentioned the kids "learn at a different pace." Therein lies the rub. Madison is not attracting top 9 talent. They have been attracting lower-quality members for years, and it just exacerbates itself when they nearly lose to Class A corps at Finals. Semi-finals are now a stretch goal for Madison. It may be time for people to admit that reality and move the corps to Class A. Getting smoked every night is demoralizing. I HOPE that I'm 100% wrong and that Madison performs on Saturday night. I see what you are trying to say but I would not refer to kids, any kid, as being lower quality. All kids who aspire to march drum corps are welcome and should be encouraged. And yes, not every kid is as talented as others as a musician, dancer, twirler, drummer, or marcher. Yes, Madison may not have the talent they once had but that is all the more reason for them to work slower, pace better, etc. I watched the show again today while at work and I really think they will be quite good when this is cleaned. And in terms of talent let me tell you they have a few trombone players who are super talented. They have got some serious chops in the trumpet line. The soloists just need time to contour those lines better, and the entire section just needs more reps and confidence in their music. Tubas sound good to me (15 of them). I agree with many on here that they will likely be a late bloomer. Nothing wrong with that. I hope they get hot about 2 weeks before Finals. If we are comparing them to the top 4 corps then yes they are not in that league. Then again most of the other corps are not either. If there goal is to get back to being a top 7 drum corps then there is no doubt they will have some growing pains as they find their voice, their style, and recruit the talent for that. But on a positive side I think that some of these kids marching this year may ultimately help them get there. Trust me, they have plenty of talent. Much more than they had last year judging from my ears (musically speaking). Edited June 28, 2023 by jwillis35 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gantang Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 16 minutes ago, TheOneWhoKnows said: It is entirely plausible to not get a full show out. By July? Then drum corp has gone is the wrong direction. They should be putting out clean shows so that the ticket buyers are getting their money's worth. To be struggling to march the whole show this late is sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbass598 Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 27 minutes ago, TheOneWhoKnows said: I would argue the demand is higher for the performers than ever. You don't just march drill anymore. There is choreography now, other visual, props to move and learn where they go. Learning to maneuver around the props. And this obsession with being as clean as possibly right out of the gate. Let's also not forget that you can't run the kids into the ground anymore. It is entirely plausible to not get a full show out. Not speaking about any corps in particular but you could argue that 1 variable is your member talent level, another variable is the season length. You should be able to set a project plan in place to meet goals based on what is known about those variables to meet that end goal. If you have a shorter season to learn and a lower talent level to work with, then you should have a difficulty level appropriate to that timeframe and talent level. Maybe part of that plan is not starting with a full show but the longer you go without a full show, the less time you have to make what you've got more effective. I myself have been guilty of writing show music for my kids a bit harder than I should have in the past and it doesn't get as clean as I want at the end of the season. As the years have gone by, I've learned how to gauge that talent and capacity a bit better but this is something I think everyone has to continue to analyze every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacewill Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, gbass598 said: Not speaking about any corps in particular but you could argue that 1 variable is your member talent level, another variable is the season length. You should be able to set a project plan in place to meet goals based on what is known about those variables to meet that end goal. If you have a shorter season to learn and a lower talent level to work with, then you should have a difficulty level appropriate to that timeframe and talent level. Maybe part of that plan is not starting with a full show but the longer you go without a full show, the less time you have to make what you've got more effective. I myself have been guilty of writing show music for my kids a bit harder than I should have in the past and it doesn't get as clean as I want at the end of the season. As the years have gone by, I've learned how to gauge that talent and capacity a bit better but this is something I think everyone has to continue to analyze every year. I kind of like some of the band directors putting out show music slightly harder than the current students can execute at an extremely high level if there is a longer term goal in mind. I think in a way it's okay to struggle as you try to reach the next levels of performance instead of settling into an existing performance level. If the corps goal one day is to compete with top 6 talent and they are currently in the 12-16 slot right now, they should start doing harder music and marching to attract students who want a challenge. Sure they may struggle a year or two but that's the long term vision to get them there. I know the kids I talk too don't just look at the final results but what type of music and marching they would be doing. They all want a challenge. I also believe some corps will never get there. Let's be honest about California. For as long as SCV and BD were healthy, Mandarins were never going to be top 6. Now with the unfortunate SCV situation it may give the Mandarins a chance to build up a higher corp of experienced players/marchers and get past that barrier they've been facing. Same with Pacific Crest, they were almost always going to be 4th in California which meant probably always a 13 to 19 corp, but with this SCV situation, maybe they can get closer to 13 to 15 and work their way into top 12 eventually. Just my opinion though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Joe Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Gantang said: But, you mentioned the kids "learn at a different pace." Therein lies the rub. Madison is not attracting top 9 talent. They have been attracting lower-quality members for years, and it just exacerbates itself when they nearly lose to Class A corps at Finals. Semi-finals are now a stretch goal for Madison. It may be time for people to admit that reality and move the corps to Class A. Getting smoked every night is demoralizing. So my kid is "lower quality" because he was contracted to Madison and Bluecoats, but chose Madison because he didn't want to pay $7,000? I'll be sure to let him know that a keyboard warrior said so. Edited June 28, 2023 by Grandpa Joe Anger has me mixing corps names at this point. 6 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, gbass598 said: If you have a shorter season to learn and a lower talent level to work with, then you should have a difficulty level appropriate to that timeframe and talent level. Maybe part of that plan is not starting with a full show but the longer you go without a full show, the less time you have to make what you've got more effective. I completely agree with you here. The design team has to know the level of experience and design to that and also have a plan for teaching and making sure the corps is prepared for the start of the season. Now in fairness, is this show too hard for Madison. I don't think so. I think other factors played into the delay, like weather, smoke from the wildfires, no indoor facility and perhaps other issues. Time will tell if this show is too much but I think people will be pleasantly surprised and entertained by their brass and percussion this summer. I can remember many corps back in the day not having a full show ready to go. SCV was classic for this. Garfield on many occasions did not have their full closer done early season, not to mention all the kids that were falling down or getting tripped over while performing their shows. Blue Devils were very rusty with an incomplete show at the onset of 2019. Some people were calling for them to place 6th. Those predictions did not bode well. These things have happened in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and they still sometimes happen today. There can be all kinds of reasons for it. But to be fair to your point I have seen corps come out dirty with incomplete shows and in some cases it was due to pushing too much demand at the members which ultimately caused some of those groups to crash and burnout. Trying to keep up with the Jones' is a dangerous thing in DCI or Band. Where this becomes even more relevant today is that in a 6 week season there is not much time to water the book (music or visual) and still have time to clean for an optimum performance come Finals week. So yes, the design teams and staff have to be careful and really know what they are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacewill Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 5 minutes ago, Grandpa Joe said: So my kid is "lower quality" because he was contracted to Madison and Bluecoats, but chose Bluecoats because he didn't want to pay $7,000? I'll be sure to let him know that a keyboard warrior said so. Holy cow, Madison was seriously $7000? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Joe Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 Just now, spacewill said: Holy cow, Madison was seriously $7000? I edited my post. Read again. My anger due to this thread has me mixing corps names. Bluecoats are charging $7,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacewill Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 Just now, Grandpa Joe said: I edited my post. Read again. My anger due to this thread has me mixing corps names. Bluecoats are charging $7,000. Ah, that's still crazy! Oh and congrats to your kid for doing so well to have options! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 7 minutes ago, Grandpa Joe said: So my kid is "lower quality" because he was contracted to Madison and Bluecoats, but chose Madison because he didn't want to pay $7,000? I'll be sure to let him know that a keyboard warrior said so. Don't take offense to what some others are saying. Your kid is obviously talented and has serious motivation if they are out marching drum corps. Madison is very talented this year. How the show gets judged? Who knows, but the kids are talented and when this thing cleans I think people will enjoy the show. Some will absolutely LOVE it. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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