DCI Judging - YT Video by Funliner Productions

[wvu80]

This just came out so I thought I'd share and make the topic on judging open ended for discussion.  Comment on the video or on judging, scoring system, whatever you want.

 

[Cappybara]

Watched this yesterday. Some of y’all clowns need to study this video closely, just saying 😂

[ContraFart]

I have a question in which I honestly do not know the answer to.

Is the achievement score relative to the content score, or to the rank and rate of all of the other corps? For example if a horn line had a 9.4 content and a 9.6 achievement, is the 9.6 the level they played the 9.4 content, or based on how they clean they are compared to the other corps competing (i.e. a 9.6 achievement would mean that that corps is cleaner than the corps who had a 9.5 in achievement, even if the corps that had a 9.5 had a higher content score)?

Also my 2 cents in improving judging. We should publish all judging materials and criteria and also release judges tapes from regionals and the entire finals week (not just Saturday night). That would at least give us, the fans the vocabulary to understand where certain decisions come from and bring in some sort of accountability for the scores that are assigned. 

[TheOneWhoKnows]

39 minutes ago, ContraFart said:

I have a question in which I honestly do not know the answer to.

Is the achievement score relative to the content score, or to the rank and rate of all of the other corps? For example if a horn line had a 9.4 content and a 9.6 achievement, is the 9.6 the level they played the 9.4 content, or based on how they clean they are compared to the other corps competing (i.e. a 9.6 achievement would mean that that corps is cleaner than the corps who had a 9.5 in achievement, even if the corps that had a 9.5 had a higher content score)?

Also my 2 cents in improving judging. We should publish all judging materials and criteria and also release judges tapes from regionals and the entire finals week (not just Saturday night). That would at least give us, the fans the vocabulary to understand where certain decisions come from and bring in some sort of accountability for the scores that are assigned. 

The answer to your question: it's both. It's a dynamic of understanding how difficult the content is and then assessing how much the performer's are achieving considering how difficult the content is. While at the same time assessing that against the other corps' achievement and their content. 

There are plenty of things out there detailing the judging criteria. Even if it's from a few year's ago, the philosophy really hasn't changed much. But you can find sample judge sheets with verbiage on them. 

I do agree they should (with judge permission) release tapes. It would provide tons of insight. 

[ContraFart]

5 minutes ago, TheOneWhoKnows said:

The answer to your question: it's both. It's a dynamic of understanding how difficult the content is and then assessing how much the performer's are achieving considering how difficult the content is. While at the same time assessing that against the other corps' achievement and their content. 

There are plenty of things out there detailing the judging criteria. Even if it's from a few year's ago, the philosophy really hasn't changed much. But you can find sample judge sheets with verbiage on them. 

I do agree they should (with judge permission) release tapes. It would provide tons of insight. 

No offense, but that was not a satisfying answer. The achievement scores being relative to both the content score and the achievement of other corps makes no sense to me. 

[jsd]

11 minutes ago, ContraFart said:

No offense, but that was not a satisfying answer. The achievement scores being relative to both the content score and the achievement of other corps makes no sense to me. 

The best way I can explain it is this: Content is what you do, achievement is how well you are doing it. In my years of design, I knew I had a potential problem if the achievement scores were higher than the content scores, because the "content" numbers are what ultimately separates one group from another. In other words, I never minded seeing an achievement number being lower than the content number, because that meant that there was some work to be done in the cleaning department (like there always is throughout the season). However, if the achievement score was higher than the content score, that would bring up the question, "How do we make the show better?" In that case, the message from the judge could be taken as , "you are doing this at a very high level, but "this" is not as well designed as that, that, and that." 

[ContraFart]

26 minutes ago, jsd said:

The best way I can explain it is this: Content is what you do, achievement is how well you are doing it. In my years of design, I knew I had a potential problem if the achievement scores were higher than the content scores, because the "content" numbers are what ultimately separates one group from another. In other words, I never minded seeing an achievement number being lower than the content number, because that meant that there was some work to be done in the cleaning department (like there always is throughout the season). However, if the achievement score was higher than the content score, that would bring up the question, "How do we make the show better?" In that case, the message from the judge could be taken as , "you are doing this at a very high level, but "this" is not as well designed as that, that, and that." 

I get what you are saying, and I really wasn't trying to throw snark to @TheOneWhoKnows. However here is how I am understanding things:

If the achievement score is relative to your content score, then at some point content will max out (unless you are adding and layering) and you can perform the content to its maximum effectiveness. i.e. You can have a super easy show with a 5.0 content and a 10.0 achievement.

If the achievement score is relative to the rank and rate system of other corps, then content and achievement are used as separate measuring sticks and the achievement score would say that a higher score is cleaner. I can see how it sounds sort of the same, but if the achievement score were only tied to the content score, then a 10.0 in achievement would not mean as much when you have a 5.0 content score. It would mean that they are maxing out their level of content, not that they were better than a corps that scored a 9.9 with a 9.9 content score. Typing this out, I can now see where the "both" argument comes from, it just seems a bit fuzzy to me.

Where I differ is with the availability of judging materials. The last time judging sheets were made public by DCI was 2012 and those sheets only had bullet points, not so much a true description of the difference between performance boxes. I honestly believe that judges tapes are the silver bullet here, with our without permission. 

[90svet]

2 hours ago, ContraFart said:

Also my 2 cents in improving judging. We should publish all judging materials and criteria and also release judges tapes from regionals and the entire finals week (not just Saturday night). That would at least give us, the fans the vocabulary to understand where certain decisions come from and bring in some sort of accountability for the scores that are assigned. 

I'm not sure there is value in this, or that anything good would come of it.  The judges already have staff on their tails....they certainly don't want fans coming after them.

Judges owe fans nothing.

Judges should be accountable only to corps staff and DCI.

[90svet]

1 hour ago, ContraFart said:

No offense, but that was not a satisfying answer. The achievement scores being relative to both the content score and the achievement of other corps makes no sense to me. 

I agree.  Achievement should be how well it is performing ITS OWN SHOW.  That's why there is generally a large gap between achievement and content early in the season.  It's also why corps fans become concerned when achievement is close in scoring to content, as it demonstrates there is not much more that can be done to increase the corps' score.

Unless a corps makes significant design changes, the content score will not increase as much as achievement.

 

[ContraFart]

8 minutes ago, 90svet said:

I'm not sure there is value in this, or that anything good would come of it.  The judges already have staff on their tails....they certainly don't want fans coming after them.

Judges owe fans nothing.

Judges should be accountable only to corps staff and DCI.

DCI owes the fans an explanation beyond the scores. I am sure BD fans would like clarity on what happened in 2008 and non BD fans would like clarity on what happened in 2015 and 2019.