DCI's Next Director

[Paul Milano]

47 minutes ago, Slingerland said:

Will be interesting to see if Cavaliers take a low and quiet approach to hiring their next CEO or whether they do an actual national search. It's promising that they announced that the position will be open early on; hoping they can follow up with an intentional search for a wide array of talent.

The Cavaliers have had open, national searches for the past two Executive Director's who were hired, and are doing so again this time.  I led the search for the past two, as that is part of my professional background (though, as an alumnus of the Cavaliers, I, of course, did the searches pro bono, but no less thoroughly than if I had been paid).  
In each of the two searches, there were close to  100 candidates who applied from all walks of life (some of them exquisitely qualified and some of them hilariously unqualified!).  They were narrowed down, email questionnaires were sent out to some, phone interviews were then held with those remaining.  About eight or nine then had a follow-up phone interview.  Next, five had additional phone interviews with multiple constituent groups (alumni board, admin/instructional staff, parents, search committee).  The three finalists were then chosen by the search committee and interviewed in-person for hours.  Those three candidate's information and the combined thoughts of the search committee and constituent groups were presented to the full board, without a recommendation for any one of the candidates in particular, simply that each of the three was fully qualified.  The board then voted and made the offer.
The final candidates in each of these searches included Cavalier alumni, people unaffiliated with the organization, and people with no marching arts background at all.  Also, in both searches, despite every effort to get a diverse pool of candidates (I know how to do a search that will attract a diverse candidate pool, and I am a flaming liberal from the 1960s!!) of the hundreds of candidates who applied there were almost no females, or people of color (as best I could determine).  We did, however, have a wide age range (20s to 70s).  
I have asked not to lead the search this time around, though I am helping once again.  At age 70 now, I think newer leadership should take the reins of these things.  A board member who also has professional experience in this area will lead the process.
So, the effort will be largely the same, and I am looking forward to yet another excellent choice being made, as were the last two  Executive Directors (Chris Lugo and Monte Mast).  
P.S. Similar national searches, though not quite as in-depth with the numerous interview processes, have been done for the last several fundraising and marketing directors at the Cavaliers organization.   

Edited September 21, 2023 by Paul Milano

[Jeff Ream]

9 hours ago, ironlips said:

Well...that's pretty insightful, I think.

i think that is honestly the number one cause 

[Jeff Ream]

2 hours ago, scheherazadesghost said:

Do you want those voices in the room because you value the insights they bring? Does your business serve people in those populations who might benefit from a broader range of perspectives in the decision making process? Then yes. If you don't and it doesn't, then no. That's simple. I lament that your automatic response to diversity initiatives is potential failure. That's only one possibility. There are so many more that are actually positive.

Also, I didn't realize I wasn't living in the real world, nor the resources I provided. So strange. What parallel universe have I been living in? (That's rhetorical and I'm not craving answers here.)

In regards to DCI, I push this because a solid portion of the members and staff and served are not represented in leadership at all. That means the decision making process cannot fully have them and their needs in mind. I've been that kind of member and staffer. And it's highly problematic.

sure....but if it ends up killing my business is it worth it? businesses are set up to run in ways that lead to success. changing how a business runs just to meet for a lack of better words "quotas" doesn't guarantee success or growth and can actually cause the exact opposite.

 

so my best next statement could be the following: given your experience in non profit, and your commitment to member safety, i hope you applied and i guess you'll let us know how the interview went?

[Jeff Ream]

1 hour ago, Paul Milano said:

The Cavaliers have had open, national searches for the past two Executive Director's who were hired, and are doing so again this time.  I led the search for the past two, as that is part of my professional background (though, as an alumnus of the Cavaliers, I, of course, did the searches pro bono, but no less thoroughly than if I had been paid).  
In each of the two searches, there were close to  100 candidates who applied from all walks of life (some of them exquisitely qualified and some of them hilariously unqualified!).  They were narrowed down, email questionnaires were sent out to some, phone interviews were then held with those remaining.  About eight or nine then had a follow-up phone interview.  Next, five had additional phone interviews with multiple constituent groups (alumni board, admin/instructional staff, parents, search committee).  The three finalists were then chosen by the search committee and interviewed in-person for hours.  Those three candidate's information and the combined thoughts of the search committee and constituent groups were presented to the full board, without a recommendation for any one of the candidates in particular, simply that each of the three was fully qualified.  The board then voted and made the offer.
The final candidates in each of these searches included Cavalier alumni, people unaffiliated with the organization, and people with no marching arts background at all.  Also, in both searches, despite every effort to get a diverse pool of candidates (I know how to do a search that will attract a diverse candidate pool, and I am a flaming liberal from the 1960s!!) of the hundreds of candidates who applied there were almost no females, or people of color (as best I could determine).  We did, however, have a wide age range (20s to 70s).  
I have asked not to lead the search this time around, though I am helping once again.  At age 70 now, I think newer leadership should take the reins of these things.  A board member who also has professional experience in this area will lead the process.
So, the effort will be largely the same, and I am looking forward to yet another excellent choice being made, as were the last two  Executive Directors (Chris Lugo and Monte Mast).  
P.S. Similar national searches, though not quite as in-depth with the numerous interview processes, have been done for the last several fundraising and marketing directors at the Cavaliers organization.   

so then despite your best efforts you couldn't attract those certain types of candidates. i applaud you for this, and despite the words of some others, i do not consider your organization a failure for failing to attract anyone of those groups

[scheherazadesghost]

45 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

sure....but if it ends up killing my business is it worth it? businesses are set up to run in ways that lead to success. changing how a business runs just to meet for a lack of better words "quotas" doesn't guarantee success or growth and can actually cause the exact opposite.

 

so my best next statement could be the following: given your experience in non profit, and your commitment to member safety, i hope you applied and i guess you'll let us know how the interview went?

It's a big leap to go from diversity initiative to business failure. I can't take that leap with you. I never mentioned quotas, I mentioned a genuine interest by leadership to recruit diverse voices. Those are different processes altogether.

I might've considered applying if I'd seen any kind of transparent opening anywhere, as it's been recommended to me. But, like with the SoA position I applied and was encouraged to continue with, I strongly believe that candidates need to be in the area or willing to relocate. I am neither. Also, I've made countless untold enemies with my advocacy in this activity, and thats not something I'm willing to engage with at this time in my career.

[Jeff Ream]

31 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:

It's a big leap to go from diversity initiative to business failure. I can't take that leap with you. I never mentioned quotas, I mentioned a genuine interest by leadership to recruit diverse voices. Those are different processes altogether.

I might've considered applying if I'd seen any kind of transparent opening anywhere, as it's been recommended to me. But, like with the SoA position I applied and was encouraged to continue with, I strongly believe that candidates need to be in the area or willing to relocate. I am neither. Also, I've made countless untold enemies with my advocacy in this activity, and thats not something I'm willing to engage with at this time in my career.

not necessarily. just because a company tries to be diverse doesn't mean they get people, or often times leading to companies getting people that really aren't qualified and it causes problems. we've seen that story too many times where forcing diversity and hiring people just to hit targets has caused problems.

the question is why isn't DCI or drum corps getting diverse candidates? if it the activity itself? we all know DCI hasn't been the most diverse activity, and it won't change dramatically overnight. it will take time.

but is the job itself just that unappealing? granted, my wife's background isn't qualified for the job, but she'd have no interest....she like most people think the job isn't worth it unless the pay is way more than DCI is willing to fork out. Honestly...i think it's the job itself, not the efforts to get diverse candidates thats the issue. see the post above about Cavies search.

 

[cixelsyd]

1 hour ago, scheherazadesghost said:

Do you want those voices in the room because you value the insights they bring? Does your business serve people in those populations who might benefit from a broader range of perspectives in the decision making process? Then yes. If you don't and it doesn't, then no. That's simple. 

That is a fair and reasoned stance.

I think you can see this applied in DCI, by the manner in which the BOD function has been moved away from the member corps directors to an executive BOD where several corps directors serve alongside people in other positions in the activity, and several people from outside the activity.

Quote

In regards to DCI, I push this because a solid portion of the members and staff and served are not represented in leadership at all. That means the decision making process cannot fully have them and their needs in mind. I've been that kind of member and staffer. And it's highly problematic.

This part raises a bit of a concern, though.  What portions of our activity constituencies are you referring to that "are not represented"?  The one that comes to my mind first (open class) is probably tangential to the context of this discussion.

[scheherazadesghost]

2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

not necessarily. just because a company tries to be diverse doesn't mean they get people, or often times leading to companies getting people that really aren't qualified and it causes problems. we've seen that story too many times where forcing diversity and hiring people just to hit targets has caused problems.

We're still not talking about the same things. You're talking forced diversity and quotas, which happen, but are not true, quality diversity initiatives. There are reasons the former fail, the biggest of which is low buyin. Another major issue is that most of these initiatives are not directed by ethnic/cultural/or gender minorities, statistically. When that's the case, yeah, there are gonna be problems. Investment and buyin over quotas and window dressings. That's the difference here.

2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

the question is why isn't DCI or drum corps getting diverse candidates? if it the activity itself? we all know DCI hasn't been the most diverse activity, and it won't change dramatically overnight. it will take time.

The diversity pipeline is either broken or nonexistent. Agreed that it takes time, but there has been no shortage of diversity in the member pool for a long time, which should be the first stop in the employment pipeline. There's breakage somewhere between membership and staffing/admin/leadership.

2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

but is the job itself just that unappealing? granted, my wife's background isn't qualified for the job, but she'd have no interest....she like most people think the job isn't worth it unless the pay is way more than DCI is willing to fork out. Honestly...i think it's the job itself, not the efforts to get diverse candidates thats the issue. see the post above about Cavies search.

Didn't someone say in this thread it's near $150k, or am I mistaken? That's bank in the midwest based on the last time I was there. Who is out there craving more from a nonprofit? If they are craving more, then they don't understand how nonprofits work. For me, it's not the job. It's the org, it's the siloing, it's the location (and I've lived in the midwest, giant no thank you to trying it again), and just like I left the activity the first time, it's the machismo. And yes, women can perpetuate machismo too so I'm not just talking men here.

2 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

This part raises a bit of a concern, though.  What portions of our activity constituencies are you referring to that "are not represented"?  The one that comes to my mind first (open class) is probably tangential to the context of this discussion.

Point me in the direction of a multiracial woman in a leadership position anywhere in this activity. And I'm not being sarcastic, I'd like to meet them and pick their brain over shared experiences in and beyond this activity 'cause it's rough livin'. There are plenty of MMs in that category. How about gender nonbinary folx in leadership roles? I don't identify that way, but know people in the activity who do and I'm sure they'd like to pick their brains too. When these groups (among the others) don't see themselves in leadership, that often means that they have to be the vanguard if they want to pursue leadership, which comes with all kinds of undue hardships.

And when I'm talking pipelining and representation, know that there are folks in my colleague circle who were the first female Hispanic regional director for Walmart or who are the only multiracial people in their buildings for a multinational conglomerate. These are real world scenarios.

Edited September 21, 2023 by scheherazadesghost
typos

[Jeff Ream]

9 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:

We're still not talking about the same things. You're talking forced diversity and quotas, which happen, but are not true, quality diversity initiatives. There are reasons the former fail, the biggest of which is low buyin. Another major issue is that most of these initiatives are not directed by ethnic/cultural/or gender minorities, statistically. When that's the case, yeah, there are gonna be problems. Investment and buying over quotas and window dressings. That's the difference here.

The diversity pipeline is either broken or nonexistent. Agreed that it takes time, but there has been no shortage of diversity in the member pool for a long time, which should be the first stop in the employment pipeline. There's breakage somewhere between membership and staffing/admin/leadership.

Didn't someone say in this thread it's near $150k, or am I mistaken? That's bank in the midwest based on the last time I was there. Who is out there craving more from a nonprofit? If they are craving more, then they don't understand how nonprofits work. For me, it's not the job. It's the org, it's the siloing, it's the location (and I've lived in the midwest, giant no thank you to trying it again), and just like I left the activity the first time, it's the machismo. And yes, women can perpetuate machismo to so I'm not just talking men here.

Point me in the direction of a multiracial woman in a leadership position anywhere in this activity. And I'm not being sarcastic, I'd like to meet them and pick their brain over shared experiences in and beyond this activity 'cause it's rough livin'. There are plenty of MMs in that category. How about gender nonbinary folx in leadership roles? I don't identify that way, but know people in the activity who do and I'm sure they'd like to pick their brains too. When these groups (among the others) don't see themselves in leadership, that often means that they have to be the vanguard if they want to pursue leadership, which comes with all kinds of undue hardships.

And when I'm talking pipelining and representation, know that there are folks in my colleague circle who were the first female Hispanic regional director for Walmart or who are the only multiracial people in their buildings for a multinational conglomerate. These are real world scenarios.

i am not talking forced anything. i am talking reality. you want more diverse candidates applying. i do too. yet they aren't, and you want to blame DCI for not doing enough...but it may not actually be their fault. see again what paul said about the Cavies situation. for all we know DCI did everything they could to encourage diverse candidates to apply. doesn't mean they will find success, and using your own words, if it's not a diverse hire, you deem it a failure on DCI's part. 

$150k in the Indy region in these times is a comfortable living, but it may not be everything. there's something else you don't take into account...location. Indy isn't exactly a state thats all that welcoming of diverse viewpoints, and the CEO would need to relocate. no offense, easy access to finals aside I don't want to live in Indiana. DCI can't change the fact people don't want to live there or have favorable viewpoints of the area...thats well beyond their control. and that is a very real world scenario you or your article do not take into account. as we say in real estate, it's all about location. and DCI isn't about to pick up and move any time soon.

i dont know of any multi-racial women in the activity in a top spot. or non-binary, or any other category because i do not troll corps pages to see who is who and what they are, and even if i did, would those folks have that type of information on the corps website? i don't look at people to categorize them by any type of identity other than are they good people.  i honestly don't even know half of the names designing for world class outside of the percussion caption. Not that i have issues with who is or isn't there, it's that i don't care. as long as it like it, thats what counts. my love of drum corps isn't a quest to right every wrong, real or perceived.

I work for a company who the head of my area was a wonderful african american lady who worked her way up from my level, and actually slid over to take over our diversity iniatives. i only know her race because of some bio stuff that was put out when she took the job and obviously seeing her face on emails and video presentations. now, i question some of the decisions she made in her time in the position that directly affected me, but i sure as hell did that with the white lady before her, and the white guy before her. and what color they were, who they dated or how they identified had zero to do with my questioning their decisions. it's what they did in their job. that's real world too. 

 

whoever takes the job, i want them to be qualified, with some knowledge of this crazy game. may the best candidate win. My hope is DCI is doing all they can to attract that person. but here's more real world....if the hire is diverse, and things don't go well, that could cause problems for DCI as well. not saying it's right, but it's real world.

 

so again...i hope you applied. you have non profit experience, and your commitment to member safety is second to very few people out there.

[kdaddy]

2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

not necessarily. just because a company tries to be diverse doesn't mean they get people, or often times leading to companies getting people that really aren't qualified and it causes problems. we've seen that story too many times where forcing diversity and hiring people just to hit targets has caused problems.

 

Have we seen that story "too many times" though? Do hires in the name of diversity really lead to hiring people that aren't qualified? I feel like that is a theoretical concern. Sure, maybe it happened to us once, therefore we turn that anecdote into "oh, it happens all the time." 

But moreover, I think the point is (or at least the point from my perspective): take great steps to build a diverse pool of candidates and pick the best person you can. You can't hire a diverse group of leaders without intentionally trying to build a pool of candidates with those different perspectives. 

 

2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

the question is why isn't DCI or drum corps getting diverse candidates? if it the activity itself? we all know DCI hasn't been the most diverse activity, and it won't change dramatically overnight. it will take time.

but is the job itself just that unappealing? granted, my wife's background isn't qualified for the job, but she'd have no interest....she like most people think the job isn't worth it unless the pay is way more than DCI is willing to fork out. Honestly...i think it's the job itself, not the efforts to get diverse candidates thats the issue. see the post above about Cavies search.

I think there's some truth to this. I'm an engineering professor. Our profession woefully lacks diversity, particularly relative to our student body (sound familiar?). We do our damnedest to build a diverse pool of candidates for faculty openings, but it's just tough, because that diverse pool doesn't exist. For us, it's "no matter how much you try to mentor me, I can make $80K with a BS, why go through several years of grad school to make $95K as a professor?" That is, our faculty don't effectively reflect our students because "I don't want that job." So while I think there's truth to the idea that the job isn't attractive, there's more to it than that. 

As a white guy, I see myself doing all kinds of jobs, because white guys have all kinds of roles. Not everyone can say that. Without the pipeline of black engineering professors or hispanic women caption heads, it's not so easy for students to see themselves in that role, therefore they don't set themselves up to pursue it. I think some corps are making efforts to build a diverse group of designers and caption leaders. More to be done, and it should be intentional. And we can't let ourselves treat anecdotes of a bad outcome as common occurrences that keep us from building those diverse pipelines.