Jeff Ream Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 13 hours ago, BG984 said: and I wish that they did........... 13 hours ago, BG984 said: and I wish that they did........... i do believe they are more than they were say 10 years ago. a lot of the things Cesario said on that day back in 09 i think was stuff he said when he started his project with DCI a decade ago. think about this....the year that whole initiative started, yeah BD won, but with their most loved show since probably 1996! And since that philosophy shift started, there's yet to be a yawner champion. Sure a few close shows that may be controversial, but in both cases effect didn't really call the show. visual performance captions did ( thinking of 15 and 19) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 48 minutes ago, musicteacher said: Years ago I taught a corps that received a thunderous reception, complete with a stating O from a filled stadium. One judge's response, "This is not General Effect." Post-Cesario this doesn't happen. exactly. the intellectual third of the triad is no longer dominating over the other 2/3's of the triad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlips Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Drilling a bit deeper, I think you may find that spreads among captions are not equally applied. Differences in Effect categories are often miniscule, and the same seems true in Music. Percussion scores often feature the widest gaps between placements. As for Visual, I'd need to do a bit more analysis. Perhaps the perception that Music has diminished in importance springs from the fact that, though the actual point allocation does not show this, Color Guard may be the real driving force behind field shows today. Program designers are often visual experts who have made their bones in WGI where sound, though essential, is cut and pasted in service of the visual effects, which appear every few seconds in a 4 to 5-minute routine. Translated to the field, this results in truncated sound bites that support rapidly occurring visual ideas but leave no space for musical development, presenting the impression that the music is a secondary consideration. Which it is in fact, the relative point allocations among captions notwithstanding. And everybody sounds good. The music is much simpler (any really challenging segments usually presented at a halt), played on superior instruments in comfortable registers for brass, percussion avoiding most rudiments (which can not be jammed into the faster tempos anyway), and all of it supported by a (usually) over-modulated pit contribution. Ergo, the real decisions do have to be made on the visual side. 3 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG984 Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said: exactly. the intellectual third of the triad is no longer dominating over the other 2/3's of the triad I still see it happening.....especially those judging GE who have largely visual/guard expertise........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Guns Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 3 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: engagement tho isn't as cut and dried as one thinks. geography can play a part. at say Crowns home show are the fans going to be more engaged for the hometown team? Sure! Should the judges solely feed off of applause? Nope. remember bringing the house down may not be universal at every stadium. Homerism is real Spot on Jeff. Example.....1999. Finals in Madison Wisconsin. Scouts had a PHENOMENAL show that deserved and earned every applause it got. But you can tell they was feeding off homefield advantage, and they should have. They got loudest ovation of the night. So does that mean that they should have beaten BD/SCV? Or finished in front of the Cadets or Cavies? No they shouldn't have. And that's not me bashing the Scouts for all the Madison fans out there. Jesus Christ Superstar is one of my top ten favorite shows of all time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 3 hours ago, BG984 said: I still see it happening.....especially those judging GE who have largely visual/guard expertise........... it happens, but it's not the driving force anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Chief Guns said: Spot on Jeff. Example.....1999. Finals in Madison Wisconsin. Scouts had a PHENOMENAL show that deserved and earned every applause it got. But you can tell they was feeding off homefield advantage, and they should have. They got loudest ovation of the night. So does that mean that they should have beaten BD/SCV? Or finished in front of the Cadets or Cavies? No they shouldn't have. And that's not me bashing the Scouts for all the Madison fans out there. Jesus Christ Superstar is one of my top ten favorite shows of all time. Amen! I was there, and the crowd was the proverbial Rondo quote. But they weren't top 5, and i too love this show and am looking forward to the social media barrage of videos that happens at this time of year 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 8 hours ago, Chief Guns said: Spot on Jeff. Example.....1999. Finals in Madison Wisconsin. Scouts had a PHENOMENAL show that deserved and earned every applause it got. But you can tell they was feeding off homefield advantage, and they should have. They got loudest ovation of the night. So does that mean that they should have beaten BD/SCV? Or finished in front of the Cadets or Cavies? No they shouldn't have. And that's not me bashing the Scouts for all the Madison fans out there. Jesus Christ Superstar is one of my top ten favorite shows of all time. A few thoughts: 1. I do not think anyone is suggesting that GE be judged purely on volume of audience reaction. 2. While home field advantage does exist in certain places, it usually does not apply to DCI finals. Finals has an audience that travels in from all over. Take an example from around that same time - 1997. There was a hometown corps in the Orlando finals and in peak form, but the corps whose crowd response measured on the Richter scale instead of mere decibels hailed from over a thousand miles away in Madison, Wisconsin. 3. Regarding your rhetorical question - should 1999 Madison have beaten top corps in GE - that is the wrong question to ask. Recall that in GE, Glassmen beat Madison. Madison did not even surpass Blue Knights in the effect caption, settling for a tie there. Seventh overall, tie for sixth in "effect". I have no particular dispute with the overall results. But the degree to which "effect" captions take performance into account (and conversely, how much "performance" captions account for design) blurs away whatever distinction we were trying to make. That is why I posted this earlier... ... because in practice, the "effect" caption reflects the overall placement order with hardly a tile even one spot out of place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 14 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: engagement tho isn't as cut and dried as one thinks. geography can play a part. at say Crowns home show are the fans going to be more engaged for the hometown team? Sure! Should the judges solely feed off of applause? Nope. remember bringing the house down may not be universal at every stadium. Homerism is real Thank you, Jeff. I'll share experience I've had at least twice. Don't know if you or your spouse have had this one: Is flipping on blinking LED vests while honking and droning inanely away while stumblebumming around while the band moms scream like crazy "effect"? Bad effect, maybe. It certainly was unforgettable; I'll give it that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onionhead2 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 The changes made 2014, could they be accredited with the Blue Coats overtaking the Cadets at finals ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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