Kopeck Posted April 11 Share Posted April 11 16 hours ago, KVG_DC said: Interesting. I had friends who marched with me in high school (ISSMA finalists every year MBA regional top tier competitor when we went and grand nationals finalist when we went) We had dot book drill sheets and were taught to use the "two markers" from dot to dot my first year (85) as we got started. But after awhile the use of the markers was dropped. I forget who wrote that drill. We had Chops Czapinski as a drill writer my sophomore and junior years. We'd still start with the two markers and a dot book method but after DCI season was done, Chops came in person and we had a lot of "on the lot" changes to the drill we just sort of did via the "ok bring this line over here now, there. that. those are your new dots." By my senior year (88), we had a dot book for the drill (Greg Cesario wrote this drill, lots of solid forms that morphed into lines and back). we were told to leave the markers at home as we started learning the drill. But also were drilled on a variety of basics of different ways to approach our dot rather than marching directly from dot to dot. Lots more emphasis on intervals and who would be setting the arc of a line. Then guiding off of that. it was an entirely new way to learn the drill for us and more intuitive. Prior to this year, we were largely known for our excellence in music and keeping our Marching and Maneuvering 'good enough' not to pull down our scores. This approach though was heavy on individual technique and movement and we quickly got noticed for our M/M scores then. We had new uniforms with white pants and a stripe down the leg rather than our 'brown pants that hide things...that even the stripe of sequins down the leg couldn't help.' So moving to more exposed legs meant a lot more attention on person to person movement being clean. There was a lot we did in basics block throughout the season for warm ups that was largely muscle memory building for foot movement, placement, and upper carriage adjustments that really made the viz pop in the end. Greg was writing and instructing and Phantom Regiment in this time and we had judge tapes that noticed. Some of the folks I marched with went on to march in corps after graduation with a fair few to Star for their best years. They described pretty much what supersop talks about with learning drill. A lot of 'on the field' experimentation that was learnt and became body memory. Having marched with Phantom Regiment in 1985, early on learning the drill there was a lot of "get from here to there in xx counts" which made things sloppy at first but over time were worked out. And over the course of the season, everything did become muscle memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KVG_DC Posted April 11 Share Posted April 11 (edited) 5 hours ago, Kopeck said: Having marched with Phantom Regiment in 1985, early on learning the drill there was a lot of "get from here to there in xx counts" which made things sloppy at first but over time were worked out. And over the course of the season, everything did become muscle memory. That pretty much sounds like my band in 1988. We'd sometimes have instruction to 'scallop' into the spot for the last four counts. Although the emphasis on basics had us moving better. We had an alum (Mike Hardiek) come back and work as a M&M cleaner early in the season as we were up against Marian Catholic who was marching their summer championship show though so it was drilled into us to clean fast. Edited April 11 by KVG_DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted April 11 Share Posted April 11 It wasn't just the tic that changed....it was also judged timing. Starting in 1984, shows were judged in their entirety....no more saving the riskiest stuff for after the 11:30 mark. No more dropping a rifle and not having it affect the score (80 BD). No more ensemble tear of the gods not affecting the score (82 SCV) Now judging from beginning to end. This also led to the end of every corps repeating large chunks of the prior year (much easier to clean when you already knew it)...83 BD was 3/5th of the 82 show....and the repeated charts were in the same places. 84 was the first year BD did not repeat at least one chart from the prior year (not counting the NY Fantasy tag ending). By 88 -- I think -- you rarely saw corps repeating charts in successive years as a matter of course. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Reaching out to Dr. Tim Ochran would be useful regarding the development of the Dot Books. He was on the ground floor of that development, though again, I have no clue as to contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRacer Posted April 14 Share Posted April 14 Having been there SCV did not use dot books in 84/85; the mantra then was “guide to form”. SCV tied with GC for High Visual in ‘84 & won Visual outright in ‘85; from recaps it appears Field Visual was the key. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted April 14 Share Posted April 14 On 4/11/2024 at 6:52 PM, 84BDsop said: It wasn't just the tic that changed....it was also judged timing. Starting in 1984, shows were judged in their entirety....no more saving the riskiest stuff for after the 11:30 mark. No more dropping a rifle and not having it affect the score (80 BD). No more ensemble tear of the gods not affecting the score (82 SCV) Now judging from beginning to end. This also led to the end of every corps repeating large chunks of the prior year (much easier to clean when you already knew it)...83 BD was 3/5th of the 82 show....and the repeated charts were in the same places. 84 was the first year BD did not repeat at least one chart from the prior year (not counting the NY Fantasy tag ending). By 88 -- I think -- you rarely saw corps repeating charts in successive years as a matter of course. I was in the audience at 1982 Finals, Sam. The crowd was so bananas there was no way in God's name SCV could have heard a thing on the field. I couldn't hear anything in the stands and my ears were ringing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 On 4/13/2024 at 10:54 PM, BigW said: I was in the audience at 1982 Finals, Sam. The crowd was so bananas there was no way in God's name SCV could have heard a thing on the field. I couldn't hear anything in the stands and my ears were ringing. Yep...the echo chamber that was the venue was bad even on audio. Fortunately for SCV, the tear was after the gun, so no negative score impact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 7 hours ago, 84BDsop said: Yep...the echo chamber that was the venue was bad even on audio. Fortunately for SCV, the tear was after the gun, so no negative score impact It was kind of a moot point. SCV was exciting, but BD was so tight and so "on" it didn't matter. I knew who won after BD's performance, it was obvious. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 Happy Composer... This is an topic worthy of pursuit and study. You should know that well before the 80s there was significant development in adjudication... moving away from penalizing error to recognizing and rewarding achievement. The first nationwide judges seminar held by the Central States Judges Association was a a major event in this regard. Through the 60s (and before) there were captions that used "build up", but there was little or no standardization of method of application. Rick Maass had proposed the "national linear scale", and in the 1970 seminar the "impression/analysis/comparison" model was proposed to implement this tool. The adoption of subjective (rather than objective.. aka ticks) was certainly advantageous to the Zingali approach to design... but it would be inaccurate to think that this was the primary motivation. Note also, The Cadets won the DCI championship in 1983, under the "tick system" in visual, with Zingali's drill. There are many people who should be credited with developing the "reward achievement" approach... and even more who would like to make such claim. If you want some good background I would suggest the text "Assessing Music Performance, A Valid System for Measuring Student Performance and Growth" bu Kevin McNulty. Kevin is a music education professional, and has substantial experience as a judge for both music and visual. The text is addressed to music educators, showing how the systems and philosophy adopted by DCI could be used by other music educators. Kevin does a good job of recounting how these were developed over time in drum corps. This text is available on Amazon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vuitton Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 On 4/11/2024 at 9:37 AM, Kopeck said: Having marched with Phantom Regiment in 1985, early on learning the drill there was a lot of "get from here to there in xx counts" which made things sloppy at first but over time were worked out. And over the course of the season, everything did become muscle memory. I just have to tell you what a huge fan I am of your '85 show. I marched Jr. Scouts in '85 and you guys were a complete bag of crap in June. But, by God, at finals you were just spectacular. To this day, that show is not only one of my favorite Regiment shows, it's one of my all time favorite shows, and THE show I consider to be the most underrated. You should be so proud of that show and what you all accomplished over that summer. It was so incredibly demanding and just marvelous. SUTA (even though I have no F'ing idea what that means)! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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