Why do people think G = "Bugles"????

[HornsUp]

Pretty good response Jason, except .........

you don't hear the overtones unless everything is in tune.

The overtones are always audible. Every musical tone (except a pure sine wave) is an overtone series. The relative proportions of the various overtones determine the particular tone color of the instrument.

[Kamarag]

Pretty good response Jason, except .........

The overtones are always audible. Every musical tone (except a pure sine wave) is an overtone series. The relative proportions of the various overtones determine the particular tone color of the instrument.

Spot on. In an ensemble situation, however, the more in-tune the line is, the more overtones you are able to hear.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Kamarag

[Piper]

The bugle was originally intended and designed to be used as a military signaling instrument. It was deliberatly concieved to be loud so that it would be heard over the din of battle. Not so with trumpets.

[Kevin Doherty]

As a drummer commenting on a horn site you can feel free to hammer me. I also say that that current snare sound is not my favorite, so I'll probably get hammered from that side, too.

I don't know if this has been done or not, but if you took an expert player and give him or her a good quality bugle and good quality trumpet, as close to apples and apples as you can get, and played the same note or passage into an oscilliscope and the wave forms are different, that means the sound is different, but there is always the possibility that the human ear cannot detect the difference.

OK, I'm going back to work on my rudiments. Been working on them for about 50 years. Always room for improvement, just don't know why I'm not making any.

Kevin

[FreelancerAlumni]

None of the "modern" day instruments are actual "bugles".

The overtone series stuff people were talking about might have something to do with it... but you don't hear the overtones unless everything is in tune.

Well the first sentence is partially correct. Some instrument manufactures did in fact make (for all intents and purposes) "G" Trumpets. Sort of... Not too many 2 valve Trumpets out there in the world. But that's a tangent.

Some manufactures did in fact design their horns to be "Chromatically playable Bugles". A Bugle is different in construction than a Trumpet. The key of the instrument is somewhat irrelevant, but that depends on the "intended audience" There are in fact Bugles in the key of Bb ! Bb Bugles were mainly used for ceremonial use because the intended audience was either closer, there was no "battle noise" to contend with or indoors. Of course, there were/are exceptions for everything.

So which horns were the "Chromatically playable Bugles"? I'll let you be the judge of that one. Which brands of horns are being bought up on eBay (etc...) by the Alumni Corps for use on the field? The successful "Bugles" are still sought after and are still being manufactured. The hacked Bb to G conversions are not. One might ask, but there cheaper? And you would be correct. There cheaper, and do not play as well, as easy, horrible slotting and crappy intonation. I dare you to walk up to Mr. Zig Kanstul and tell him his Bugles are just hashed out, converted Bb Trumpets. I'll send you a condolence card!

As far as overtones go... Here's an article to read: http://www.smithwatk...ttingtech02.pdf

A single horn, playing a single note produces a series of overtones within that single note. Adding other instruments will enable the ear to pick out the overtones better. Yes, playing in tune helps. But the overtones are there never the less. You always hear the overtones. If you didn't, all you would hear is a pure "sine wave" type of sound, and you would go to sleep with boredom !

[JimF-LowBari]

The bugle was originally intended and designed to be used as a military signaling instrument. It was deliberatly concieved to be loud so that it would be heard over the din of battle. Not so with trumpets.

Ding, ding, ding... winnah... What I can't understand is why people bash the horn lines of the past. Trying to make beautiful in tune music with nothing more than modified signaling devices (my term) on those beasts wasn't as easy as today. Just a lot easier to lose the one in those days. We had a lot of HS band instructors as horn staff and man did we get drilled on "listen, listen, listen".

Edited March 22, 2012 by JimF-LowBari

[kickhaltsforlife]

Pretty good response Jason, except .........

The overtones are always audible. Every musical tone (except a pure sine wave) is an overtone series. The relative proportions of the various overtones determine the particular tone color of the instrument.

Yup! You got me, I miss spoke!

[HornsUp]

We had a lot of HS band instructors as horn staff and man did we get drilled on "listen, listen, listen".

Yeah, but did they ever tell you what to listen for? Or how to make corrections?

Nowadays, these same geniuses just say "use your tuner" and think their job is done.

[kickhaltsforlife]

Yeah, but did they ever tell you what to listen for? Or how to make corrections?

Nowadays, these same geniuses just say "use your tuner" and think their job is done.

I was observing a band director who made sure his students had a tuner on their stands at all times. And said that it always have to be in the green. OMG it was so hard not to open my mouth. I did have a chat and asked him why after the class. He said that's what he was taught in college.

[Mello Dude]

Here is a paper by Peter Bond on this subject.

ADDRESS:

The G Bugle; History and Identity

Mr. Peter Bond

The many posts about the "multi-key" question and the arguments (and misinformation

underlying many of them) on RAMD have in the past compelled me to write in an effort to

clarify some of the issues. On the basis of these previous posts, I was asked to contribute a

"paper" on the topic for presentation to this symposium.

The question is (as I interpret it) is: Should DCI allow competing corps to use brass instruments

other than the currently sanctioned "bugles" pitched in G; i.e.: band instruments. Other questions

naturally follow, but that is the root of the debate as I understand it. I will try to dispel

misinformation, and provoke thought.

The G Bugle: History and Identity

Marching bands have adopted (copied) completely the marching style, visual vocabulary,

percussion instrumentation and techniques, guard work, and in some cases even the uniforms

pioneered and used by Drum and Bugle Corps. However, no band can match (or better) the

thrilling signature sound and power of a DCI hornline. The reason is the unique instrumentation.

The G "bugles". To understand what we have, how we got here, and some of the prejudices that

may underlie different points of view, a thumbnail (admittedly subjective) historical sketch is in

order.

As many RAMD readers know, Drum and Bugle Corps began as an activity for veterans (WW I)

and soon as a youth activity (junior corps) sponsored by veterans' organizations (American

Legion and VFW), and later CYO, Boy Scouts, and other groups. The idea was to give kids

something constructive (or at least diverting) to do and keep them off the streets. These were not

college music students, but generally lower middle-class and sometimes disadvantaged kids.

They signed up, and got a uniform, an instrument / drum / flag / side-arm, and rudimentary

instruction in playing and marching; courtesy of the sponsoring organization. Then it was, "on

the bus and off to the parade". Or field contest. The rudimental drumming was already quite

sophisticated with a long tradition. Marching was military (of course), and the precision and

execution in these captions was of a high caliber. The horn lines were another matter. The

instruments (bugles) corps use have their roots in the same military tradition that even today, has

guard personnel spinning imitation rifles and sabres to the music of Dvorak or Broadway shows

(a peculiar juxtaposition to the first-time spectator).

The original bugles were "mezzo-soprano"; pitched in G below C. With no valves, a bugle is

limited to 6-8 notes (virtuosos notwithstanding). Valves were added to allow for more notes, but

piecemeal, one-by-one, over many years; each modification meeting resistance from the fathers

of the activity (VFW and American Legion) in the name of tradition. This resistance to change

accounted for ridiculous instruments which by the late 60's (when the author joined a corps)

featured a horizontally mounted piston valve operated by the right thumb, and a lever-actuated

rotary valve (on the tuning slide!) operated by the left hand. These horns (by this time in

mellophone, french horn, baritone, and contrabass configurations as well) had an incomplete

scale and arrangers were required to write around these unavailable notes. Many of them took a

kind of perverse pride in this, as did the players (a rapid chromatic scale was a real feat). They

were members of a weird, exclusive, and fiercely proud musical subculture which had developed

almost entirely outside of the band world. In the early days (40's-early 60's), corps' horn lines

made for some pretty gruesome listening, owing both to the "bastardized" instruments and the

unskilled nature of the kids corps attracted (and were intended for). Repertoire was limited

because teaching was largely by rote (few kids read music). Bands and band directors looked

down on corps for their primitive and sometimes destructive brass playing, and lack of

musicianship. Corps returned the scorn; priding themselves on their crisp rudimental drumming,

military bearing (no flip folders), precision marching and power (primitive or not, corps horn

lines were LOUD). If I have offended many "old timers" I should note here that not all corps'

hornlines were unlistenable. The Cavaliers of the early 60's, for instance, displayed excellent

sound and ensemble; outstanding for that era.

By the late 60's and early 70's, the brass sound of drum corps was improving dramatically.

Instruments were improving (although still in the rotor-valve style), arrangements were better,

and teaching improved. Most likely, musically trained alumni were responsible (an interesting

potential research topic). More kids with some music skills were also attracted to corps. By the

mid-70's (under DCI now), the field shows of the top corps were so entertaining and

professionally executed that bands began to emulate them. The top hornlines now combined

tremendous acoustic power with improved intonation, technique, and skillful arrangements to

become the envy of "corps style" bands. Personally, I find the irony of this somewhat satisfying.

Today's best marching bands can and do every thing that a DCI corps can do except make that

SOUND.

The G "bugle" makes this powerful sound possible. What is it and how does it differ from a Bb

instrument? I will confine my comparison to the soprano bugle in G and the Bb trumpet.

Because it has come up on RAMD, I will touch on brass nomenclature. There are theoretically

two families of brasswinds (excluding saxophones): 1) Bugles (conical or tapering bore);

including the french horn, flugelhorn, cornet, (true) bugle, tuba, etc., are characterized by a

"mellow" sound, which blends easily. 2) Trumpets (cylindrical bore); trumpet and trombone,

have a more brilliant, penetrating sound with greater projection.

Modern instruments (except the slide trombone) are actually a blend or compromise of conical

and cylindrical tubing in proportions which will give each instrument it's characteristic sound

(or approximation thereof) with the best possible pitch tendencies. For example, a true

cylindrical trumpet would be out of tune to our "well-tempered" ears (see J.S. Bach; "The Well

tempered Clavier"), so a percentage of the tubing is tapered like a cornet, to bring it (closer) in

tune. Enough of this.

The soprano is actually an alto trumpet in G. The proportion of cylindrical to conical tubing is

about the same as the modern Bb trumpet. The term "bugle" as it relates to DCI corps today is

simply a nod to tradition. It's a big trumpet.

I will explore the issue by responding to (summarized) comments I have read on RAMD.

* "The key of the instrument doesn't make a difference."

Wrong. The key is determined by the length of tubing (and proportionally larger bell). You can

play the same pitch on different length instruments, but the longer instrument will have a

"deeper", "richer" sound (due to more overtones and a lower fundamental). This difference is

subtle at the space of a « step (Bb to A trumpet, D to Eb), more obvious at the whole step to

Bb trumpet), and at a minor third (G to Bb), anybody can tell. The sonority and (potential) power

is markedly different. I have conducted playing tests with some of my colleagues in the MET

Orchestra and it's "no contest"; a trumpet in low G can acoustically obliterate a professional Bb

trumpet with ease. This difference x 30 players is enormous.

* "Bb trumpets are better instruments."

A useful metaphor is that of a Ferrari Grand Prix racing machine and a Honda Civic. Which is

the better car? They are designed for completely different purposes. The Civic won't fare well at

the track in Monte Carlo, and the Ferrari is useless in stop-and-go traffic. The Bb trumpet is the

superior instrument indoors, where there is an acoustic resonance. The G bugle played in the

same register indoors is unwieldy, and at a fortissimo sounds positively apocalyptic. Outdoors,

where there is little or no reinforcing acoustic, and tremendous volume is required to reach the

audience, the G bugle-although not of the same quality construction as a professional Bb

trumpet-projects a robust sound to the stands (in the hands of a well trained player), and the Bb

trumpet sounds nasal and puny by comparison.

* "Bb trumpets are better in tune (thereby potentially louder, and of course, in tune)."

Yes. A professional model Bb trumpet played correctly has superior pitch tendencies. A student

instrument; less so. Some G sopranos (3-valve) I have played are appalling, others; no problem.

Bugles are not built with the same quality control or care as top-of-the-line Bb trumpets. There

are more "lemons".

In my experience, the player's technique and "ears" are by far the bigger intonation variable. A

player who plays the one out of tune is no better on the other instrument. Likewise, a player with

good pitch can play both instruments well. I don't mean to minimize the frustrating effects of

poor instruments- some of them are truly awful- and every horn should be tested by a competent

player before purchase, just as you would a personal Bb trumpet. An in-tune horn line is louder

than an out-of-tune line, but the G instruments will always win the volume contest, and they can

be played with splendid intonation. That's where teaching comes in.

I should also mention that marching band trumpeters very often create a distorted and

out-of-tune sound on their Bb's in an effort to "fill a stadium" or emulate a corps sound.

* "G bugles are harder to play."

Playing the G bugle presents the same challenges as a Bb, but with a little bigger sound to

control, and a minor third pitch difference. Some players find the bigger size and reduced

acoustic resistance liberating, and others perceive it as a loss of control, and find it

uncomfortably "open". It's an adjustment to be sure, but one a good teacher can help with

(telling them what to expect, forgiving early errors). It requires a slightly modified technique

because of the idiom in which it is used and what it was designed to do; project a "big" sound at

very high dynamic levels outdoors. Playing with accuracy in the upper register is more difficult.

That is the major trade-off for the tone. I find that proper technique on the bugle compliments

trumpet playing.

Generally, the pitch difference gives Bb players the biggest problem at first; particularly when

reading music. The player sees a note on the page and expects it to sound three half-steps higher

than is correct on the bugle. It usually takes a couple of days to adjust. Again, good teaching can

make all the difference.

* "Can't they design a big Bb trumpet with the same tone?"

No. There's no getting around the acoustics of that longer tubing. Furthermore, mouthpieces,

tubing, bores, tapers and bells only work together within a limited range of sizes and

proportions. For instance, American Bb trumpet bore sizes only range from .459 to .470. Beyond

that, it doesn't work any more for the notes we need to play. An extreme example is that of a

trumpet player buzzing his or her mouthpiece in a baritone or trombone as many of us did in

middle school band. Funny sound.

* "Bb trumpets and multi-key brasses would be less expensive."

Here's the Kanstul price list for G bugles as of 12/04/97:

Soprano $500

"Powerbore" sop 550

Mellophone 625

Baritone 825

Baritone "Grande" 875

Euphonium 1995

5/4 Contra (no case)4995

A top-of-the-line Bb trumpet will start around $1200 and go up. The "Marching Brass"

middle-voice instruments seem comparably priced with their bugle counterparts. I don't have the

convertible tuba prices in front of me right now, but they are easy to obtain. Work it out. Keep in

mind that to be competitive, no corps (with the money) is going to buy student model

instruments if something better is available. What is now one of the remaining areas of

competition with a "level playing field" for the both the major powers and the lesser

corps-hornline instrumentation-will tilt toward the guys with the cash. Judging critiques would

become a nightmare.

* "Multi-key DCI competition wouldn't bar those that wish to remain with the G horns."

G bugles are manufactured by only two companies that I am aware of; DEG and Kanstul. With

fewer corps playing these specialty instruments, how much longer will they be available? I'm

frankly surprised that they are still made now, but we should appreciate how beautifully suited

the activity they are. Once they go out of production (as I suspect they would), would we ever be

able to return to them should it be determined that "yes, that's the sound we wanted all along"? I

doubt it. This is admittedly sheer speculation on my part.

There are other arguments, but I am finding this as tedious to write as it must be to read. Allow

me to forward a thought: Is it possible that all of the aforementioned arguments are just so much

smoke? A distraction, as it were. Is there another reason that some major players in DCI

advocate allowing band instruments into competition?

What would it be worth to a major manufacturer of band instruments, in terms of national sales,

to be able produce magazine ads, complimentary posters, calendars, etc., with color photos of

the top DCI corps-the ideal (and idols) of hundreds of corps-style marching bands from coast to

coast-playing the manufacturer's instruments above say, the corporate logo? How about wearing

the logo?

Several complete sets of instruments, surely. Perhaps much more. Pure speculation of course,

but not that far out, given the potential market involved, and the example of the marching

percussion scene.

To summarize:

I maintain that the G "bugles" constitute the only area in which Drum and Bugle Corps can be

discerned from an all-brass marching band. Outdoors, where corps perform, G "bugles" are

superior to trumpets, "marching trombones" and the like-having been designed (albeit slowly)

for just that purpose-and are responsible for the thrilling, powerful "corps sound" or "sonic

identity" which fans have come to expect.

Whatever happens, discussion should proceed from facts and decisions be made on the basis of

what is in the best interest of the activity as a whole.